Einen schönen guten Abend und herzlich willkommen hier im Raumschiss zur bereits siebten Ausgabe von Einspruch Wiederrede der kulturpolitischen Gespräche mit sehr viel Globalisierungskritik. Gespräche mit sehr viel Globalisierungskritik. Ich habe heute einen ganz besonderen Gast bei mir, Jennifer Kamau. Darf ich willkommen heißen, sie ist aus Berlin gekommen. Und bevor wir dann gleich mal ins Gespräch gehen zum heutigen Thema Grenzregime, Migrationskontrollen und antikoloniale Gegenstimmen möchte ich Jennifer Camau noch ganz kurz in deutscher Sprache vorstellen. Wir werden dann gleich auf Englisch wechseln. Die Jennifer ist Sprecherin und Mitgründerin des International Women's Space. Du hast das 2012 mitgegründet. Das International Women's Space versteht sich als antirassistisches, feministisches Kollektiv, das aus geflüchteten und migrantischen Frauen sowie Frauen auch ohne diese Erfahrung besteht. Im Jahr 2019 initiierte Jennifer die sogenannte Break Isolation Group. Innerhalb des International Women's Space eine selbstorganisierte Arbeitsgruppe von geflüchteten Frauen. Ein Raum also wurde damit geschaffen, um zusammenzukommen und sich gegen Isolation und Diskriminierung im Asylverfahren zu organisieren. some research preparation for this talk series. I wanted to find someone who is engaged in these topics of migration, border regimes, this critical approach. It's highly necessary, my point of view, to have it in my series. And I did some research and at the moment I got the right point at Berliner Gazette, it's a digital platform dealing with question of infosphere, digital human rights and so on and I first for the first time I saw your name you published there are some articles and I thought you're the right one to bring to LINZ and now you're here it's great to have you here thank you very much Jennifer I want to start with a question probably to get some impressions of your personality and how you got your way into these discussions. When did you first take this critical look at the realities of migration and border regimes? And what made you decide to become an activist against racism and discrimination? Thank you very much. And thank you for having me here. And also the opportunity to be in Austria. It's my first time in Austria. And what are we to be in Austria. It's my first time in Austria. And what a way to be in Austria. To come back to your question, is that sometimes you don't choose to be an activist. Situations get you into that situation. Your survival is tied to your activism. And that's typical. And historically, that has been like that. And the topic of migration is a very complex topic because I come from the history of European conquest. And European conquest and colonialism was the most violent, and I will use the words that they don't use to show the magnitude of what European colonialism did. And everywhere there was European colonialism, there was a genocide that is not spoken in that context. Or it's not given the right words. And the issue of migration, then you can relate because then independent during the conquest, who was living where? relate because then independent during the conquest who was living where so europeans left and came to africa and they divided africa like a piece of cake this we know from the 1884 banding conference that's where colonialism was born and after that the continuation of exploitation of our resources uh it still continues even though it's given different terminologies neocolonialisms globalization so it's this continuation of this complex context and then when i came to germany um first is the realization that that was the first time because you start seeing, you know, Europe positions itself as a place of human rights. And all these very big names, they used to make a public relation, PR, about what Europe is, the propaganda. And the first time now I came to Germanyany and then you realize that this this is a very different space even though having been socialized in this colonial context you have you know a lot about europe but then when you come here it's a different space and the most interesting thing is that people from when the europe came to conquer Africa, it was a migration. But when the Africans come to Europe, no, it was a conquest. But when Africans come to Europe, then it's migration. either you are a refugee or you're a migrant but the other way is either an expat a tourist you know this this difference is even in terminologies so that's the first time you start realizing everything even the context changes so you're either a refugee or a migrant and then when it comes to the issue of human rights then realize, actually that was the first time you realize even the borders within that even my presence as a black person was a border. So that's the first time even it also strikes you that even my presence as a black person is a threat to some people. a threat to some people. So that was why I started thinking, okay, colonialism, we're still dealing with colonial trauma as Achila Bembe has already brought the context of colonial trauma. And these countries are built by the resources that are coming from our countries. But the resources can easily enter Europe, but not the people from Africa. So it starts you with such an anger because then this positioning of me as a black African woman in Europe where these issues of colonialism started was very important. And again, activism, when you come from this history of colonization, there's always the impression that it was very many years ago but it was not many years ago because my grandfather was one of the people who was fighting for the independence the Mau Mau fighters of freedom for Kenya so that trauma is something I have lived because my parents my mother actually is born in this context of colonialism she was born in this context of colonialism she doesn't know life without colonialism so again you inherit all these colonial issues and then um uh then when you arrive here everything you had about concentration camps uh identity i know how you had to carry this identity before you you leave from one place to another there is the concept of the residence fleesh law you come and find it here and then all of a sudden you realize okay this is colonialism and it still continues and this is where it was born so this this uh structures still exist and people coming from africa or other places where you have to come and seek for protection, have to go through an apartheid asylum system. You're talking about that these colonialistic structures still exist, but as far as I understood, it also means that these sort of borders are also in our mindset. So it's more than a structure, that's a sort of collective thinking that we always reproduce borders and this colonial behavior, colonial systems. Still today, still today, even today, in a so-called post-colonial reality. Yes, clearly yes. And this inherent, for example, is when, let's look at language. Language is already a border. It makes a border. It makes a difference. You have introduced in German, we are speaking in English, which neither of them is my mother, is my language. I have my language, my tribe, but then even the borders that were the demarcation of Africa, of course, that was the first concept of borders. The language, because even when I meet other African people, we are speaking a colonial language and we cannot speak to one another, for example. Those are borders. When you come here, of course, then there are borders depending on where your colonial inheritance, I mean, the context is. And then, of course, the issue of race. These are also borders. And these are things that people don't really reflect about. But all this is what these issues of borders and conquests do. and conquests. Colonialism and imperialism have caused a lot of disasters and crises in the so-called global south that displays millions of people making them unemployed and forcing them to wait, as I call it, the reserves in the capitalist global north. I read a text of you where you argue that one day these exploited can be the main agents, the actors of a system change. What do you exactly mean by this? I think like I said in the first statement about even goods moving from the global majority, because also terminologies really matter. We are not who decides who is the global north and who is the global south. That's also another form of conquest. And if you look at the reasons why there is such a level of poverty, and Africa is not poor, it's the absence of money, because everything that I've built Europe is coming from Africa. So how can you say Africa is poor and everybody is focusing on Africa? So it is still the continuations of constitutions that were left during colonialism that still enable this exploitation of Africa. It is things like neocolonialism in terms of unfair trade, in terms of cheap labor, in terms of resources. And when I come to resources, I give an example of tea and coffee that is consumed in Europe. You even have something like British tea british has no tea plantations these continuations of colonial conquest still happens and africa has been raped its resources it still continues being raped in its resources and when the people who are living in this continent decide to get a better life for themselves then that's where the big topic of migration is. And Africa is not poor, it is impoverished. It's the absence of money. And we know also how Africa is kept in debt with this World Bank and IMF. So we are kept dangling with debts and debts and debts and debts. And so when people come to these countries, one, even as a way of trying to make a better life, then you find that with the situation of Europe, for example, and it's low birth rate, an aging population, low workforce. as ratio capital. So you keep questioning why they cannot abolish the whole of the asylum system, the Geneva Convention of 1952, and say, okay, we do not want asylum anymore. But people are kept as a ratio capital that when they need a certain amount of workforce, then the same people, they go for the same people and say, okay, now we are going to make very special clauses that enable people who have been here for a certain period of time, get in, enter into the workforce. And nobody is interested in how people enter these countries because the borders have been monetized and militarized. And when people enter here, the way they enter here also determines how they are going to live their life. Because when you live, you're determined you're coming for a better life. So when you enter, nobody caring about how you made your journey here, and everything that you have encountered then becomes part of your your you know that's what you embody when you live in a country that also projects hate you know projects racism projects exploitation projects cheap lip and eventually that's what people embody. A couple of weeks ago, I talked to an Ugandan filmmaker. She already was invited for a conference of DorfTV here in Linz two years ago, Cicela Lomanzi. And we were discussing the fact that Donald Trump, the US president, is intending to cut off the US aid for Africa. She agreed, yeah, that will be a lot of suffering, that a lot of important projects couldn't be financed anymore. But at the same time, she underlined it could be also an opportunity for Africa as such to really get independent. So to use this situation that now we can really stop this sort of debt and dependence on colonial feeding Africa. What do you think about that? She's right. I really support, because when you look at USAID and what these big organizations do. Actually, from when they started having these very big NGOs in our country, nothing changes. Actually, they are the medium that is used to militarize our countries, that is used to harvest intelligence, harvest data in our countries. So it's never for the interest of Africa. It's for the interest of these countries that are bringing this aid. And if you look at where, for example, coming from Kenya, where these agencies of NGOs are based, they have changed everything in terms of the area where they live, because they live in the suburbs of the city. They drive the most expensive cars. They have made the cost of living very high. They pay themselves very high salaries and there's never in terms of the work they say that they do. And they are there all the whole time. So I think I would agree with the Ugandan. It's time we say we don't want a denim yeah let's come back uh to migration we uh can call it that we live in the age of migration yeah and um the hundred,000 question should be, how can we break out of ignorance, violence and this unprotectedness of migrants, for instance, coming to Europe? things that I find disgusting is how the discourse of migration is in every topic when it comes to the politics of Europe. And it's always a sieve. Migration is the biggest problem in Europe. And I'm sure if they really did not want migration, they would just say, we will not do this. migration they would just say this we will not do this and every discussion that is done about migration is without the migrants themselves it's a bunch of white people just sitting down talking about talking about migration and nobody talks about why people migrate nobody talks give up gives up gives nobody cares that these are human beings because the minute you arrive here then you have to fight for your existence in order to be a human being because the context of human rights doesn't apply to some people it's only human rights only for some people so by the time you start proving you're human then it it takes time and uh and yes is migration the only problem that europe has what we have to do with it with inflation what do we have to do with the war in Ukraine, for example? What do we have to do with the... The, you know, networks coming from Germany that industrialization is already a big problem. What do we have to do with that? What do we have to do with the aging population? What do we have to do with that what do we have to do with the aging population what do we have to do with the no birth rate and in the in the whole of this discussion of migration the whole of discussion of the politicians the focus is on migration and there's no profound leader who is talking about addressing every other reason why there is a social unrest in the country, why we are going towards right-wing extremism. No leaders are addressing that. And the only thing they seem to agree on is migration. So this time we have the EU pact, which they all agree. which they all agree. We have seen issues on ratio profiling being legitimized in terms of trying to, you know, protect the borders. We have seen deportations being very rampant and state violence being okay, you know, because people have to be taken by force, whichever means that is needed, in order to make our country safe, you know. This sense of safety for some people is what is also problematic. Do you have concerns regarding the future of human rights? For who? Human rights for who? For everybody, for us. No, it's human rights for me human rights for who for everybody for us no it's it's human rights for some people for some people it's never human rights remember the context and how racism manifests is that um and without getting in the context of racism is that there are other people who are better and more human than other people. So the issue of human rights doesn't apply to others. It applies to just a certain race. You already mentioned it. Europe is considering itself the origin, the source of human rights regarding the French Revolution. That's the birth moment of human rights. Why shouldn't I believe in it? I don't know. Good question. Because I don't believe in it. I don't know. I don't believe in it you know i don't know i don't believe in it so probably it's good for you to uh reflect my hope yeah and and and ask yourself if it's there's written really the human rights or is it just words But nevertheless, as far as I understood your work, your activism and its goals, you're nevertheless trying to increase knowledge, societal knowledge about the equality for people of, for instance, African origins. for people of, for instance, African origins. And that's why you also call it, you use this term of anti-Black racism. How can you really approach in your daily practice? There must be even some hope for you, for yourself. Yeah. I look at it this way because, again, coming to the context of migration, they use terminologies that also create a state of unrest within the civil society. And a good example is the migration crisis because it's termed as a crisis. And for me, what I see is a global inequality crisis and how resources are distributed and how... And it's from that context that I base what I am trying to position myself. It's the absence of money, but every resource that is African, this we have already covered. And what I try to position myself is to provide the voice of an African person. First of all, because I am an African, and then I'm every other thing. And what I have seen from the people that are living, the African community that is living here is a lot of inequality, even in terms of resources and then issues of rights and we have done a lot of work for example with, and positioning is very important, that's work for example with and positioning is very important that's why for example we have our own we have taken the responsibility of doing our own publication writing our own stories because we have seen again from history how our history was written by the same oppressors and we lose in terms of who we are in terms of the knowledge so coming here is positioning ourselves as black people from africa and and trying to have a very different approach to how people are speaking about africa that's one whether it's the language whether it's the awakening whether it is it is um whichever way that we are able to speak about ourselves without people uh describing or being interfering in who yeah i think that's one of the most important things point out the crimes against humanities that have been happening for a long period of time they really like when we have lived this injustices for so long from the slave trade era to the colonialism era to the new colonialism and still how our struggles are hard, or if they're hard, I mean, nobody cares. So my position in here in terms of creating an organization like International Women's Space is this position, is to have our publications, our documentation, to demand the rights as a diaspora for Africa. And that's where we have things like the UNDK. I think you're going to discuss about that. It's everything. It's everything. It's my voice for Africa and for my people. That's interesting that you're mentioning the diaspora because as far as I have been following these discourses of the pan-African movement, I remember that there was a lot of critique that the diaspora abroad of Africa is not enough aware of the meaning of Africa, is not enough aware of the meaning of Africa, even for the diaspora or for this pan-African movement outside of Africa. Would you agree with this critique? Depends on who is saying, who is giving this critique. I don't know. There are several filmmakers, philosophers, highlighting this critique. there's a lot to unpack about Africa, which even right now in the 21st century, the injustices of Africa have never been recognized. We haven't even reached the point of discussing these crimes against humanity. Our histories are still buried somewhere in these archives, you know? We are still trying to say this is what has been done to us. Nobody's hearing, you know? So when people start criticizing Pan-Africanism, I would freely like to understand from what perspective or what was the critic about. I will come back to to ashil bembe for instance yeah you already mentioned his name this famous and well-known political cameroonian political scientist teaching at the university at janesburg in South Africa and he is very critical in all all directions and one of the point he's always focusing on is the question of African art which has been robbed for a long, long time. And he's demanding the return of African art. That's a very, very huge conflict, even with European museums and I don't know, because they argue that in our digital time, we can share African art, we keep the original and you can have all these digital copies, whatever you want. And he demands the return of African art, the robbed African art, as well as more fairness in Europe's dealings with the global south. Once again, highlighting the question of the distribution of resources. What do you think? Where is Jennifer Kamau's point of view? Just for a record, Athena Bembe was called the anti-Semitic Negro. Jennifer Kamau's point of view? Just for a record, Tina Bembe was called the anti-Semitic Negro. And in 2020, he was to have an event in Enarzi, not in Westfalia, but they refused him to come because of his position in Palestine. I know, yeah. And that was interesting, that was in Palestine. I know, yeah. And that was interesting. That was in 2020. And he also has been very critic, and he also has been pushing. So when people talk about diasporans are not pan-Africanism, I wouldn't know what to say because Achinda Bembe has really, he's the one who is pushing on these issues of even the colonial trauma. Let's discuss about what really happened. He's demanding that these artifacts be returned to Africa. You know, that's a very strong position, regardless of whether it's Benin, Nigeria, Tanzania. And we have seen from this positioning of Achila Bembe that all of a sudden people from different parts of Africa, depending on where they were colonized, are also demanding. The pressure is there. And our question is always, why would you want to have our artifacts in your museum? Don't you have your culture that we can display in the museum? Why does Europe still want to hold into this painful history of Africa and you want to own it without giving the perspective of the harms? and a good example is also uh because achingabembe is an academia you would say he's an academia we have activists like um the monyaka boro suri boro he's a tanzanian and he's tanzania was also a german colony and the most interesting thing is um even when we start demanding for these things to be returned back there's always a controversy in terms of and i'm focusing on germany because this is where I live and this is now I've seen, I've been part of these discussions of people who are demanding these things for Africa. And Germany has had colonies, Namibia. We know the history of the Naman, Herero of Namibia and Germany acknowledges, but wants to decide how it wants to do the reparations and I want to focus on Mzee Surulumboro because he's an activist and the work he has done even before he was had in terms of demanding for even the spouse of his grandfather that is lying in the Humboldt Forum. And I want you to all go and watch a documentary called The Open Graves and see what harm these colonial histories do. Because for Europeans, they could be either just bones or whatever it is, but for us, they have such a symbolic meaning. For us, it is the remains of our people. For us, it is our culture. For us, it's deeper than that. And when I talk about Germany and Tanzania, and again I come back to the history of people imagining that colonialism was many years ago, and I'm talking about my grandfather. In the event with Monyaka Mboro trying to get these remains, then you start getting into contact with people like Katia, she's in the Green Party, then you start getting into contact with people like Katia. She's in the Green Party, whose grandfather was Karl Peters, the founder of Germany, East Africa. She's in the political party. But then this discussion still gets in a way that it cannot really come to an end because you don't even understand this white disillusionment and processing things that you don't even care about and starting to question, okay, whom do we give them back to? That's not the question. Just take them back to the people. So it's a lot in terms of, it's a lot, really. It's just not symbolic. This earth even remains of people who, people have never had disclosure of their parents and grandparents not being given decent barriers in the country. Now I guess it's the right moment to open up the discussion to the audience. Are there any questions, remarks? Is there any critique? I have one question. You mentioned the term anti-Black racism. Could you explain what exactly it means? Because I'm a bit confused, because isn't racism in itself anti-black people? The racism that is made by, that affects the black people coming from the white people. And the most interesting thing is that we face racism from across borders. Whether we are in Europe, whether we go to Middle East, whether we go to whichever country we are facing racism. And our race, what we face is usually very historic. Even though for many years this has been happening, it has never really been seen for what it is. So the positioning of anti-black racism is also talking about all the other forms of racism that we encounter from everybody else. If you go to Libya, for example, there's racism. It's still Africa. if you go to Libya for example there's racism, it's still Africa if you go to the Middle East if you go to you know it's still against certain people because of how they look like really and this doesn't have anything to do with colorism because also colorism is also there but it's racism from everybody else yeah thank you I guess probably because also colorism is also there, but it's racism from everybody else. Yeah. Thank you. I guess probably we also use the term anti-Muslim racism, but I would agree the necessity to use this term anti-Black racism because there are these particularities of this colonial history of slavery that's very, very, very unique. Very unique. That's as Achille Mbembe, for instance, to come back to him, uses this term or explains it that this is this precondition of the later Nazi genocide. There is no genocide of nationalism, socialism is believable without this history of slavery and the genocide against the black people. I think that's where we have for example the UN Decade of People of African Descent, because then we talk about recognition, justice and development and other things. Because even with the UN Decade that was now 10 years, the only thing we could achieve was recognition. But implementation hasn't taken place. I think that's why we have a second UN Decade of People of African descent. Imagine it takes 10 years for people to recognize that what we are saying is really the magnitude of what we are saying. And it takes 10 years. Of course, there was COVID in between. So we can take out like three years. But then now we need another 10 years before implementation takes place and even when there's this recognition of anti-black racism and they change for example policies or they bring institutions that are supposed to overlook that this racism doesn't happen something always comes up and they're justified again you know like racial profiling really there was there was really a time that it was a crime to to be racial profiled but then again when it comes to the issues of deportation and safety then they legitimize those things that are again being recognized for certain communities. So it's like a catch-22 in between. But nevertheless, can you give us some impression what really has happened within this framework of this international decade for people of African origin and what has changed, really changed since then? I think the recognition. And you find that, for example, they have introduced, that they have said it's punishable if you're racist. Then there are laws that they have put in place that you're punishable by law. They have made adaptations on affirmative actions, on policies to ensure equal access to education and labor market, like ensure equal access to education and labor market. You know, this equality aspect, and the recognition that I'm talking about, support for black communities, anti-discrimination policies, monitoring bodies like Ombudsman, federal anti-discrimination agencies at least have put structures in place, but the implementation is yet to happen. So we are hoping the next 10 years of UN Decade will focus on restitution and reparations because reparations is a big topic. If Europe paid Africa what it took from Africa, you will not see any African here. So we are beginning to demand for reparations. I don't want to finish an evening like this without focusing on the topic, on the question of the role and the responsibility of media. topic on the question of the role and the responsibility of media. In your point of view, what should this responsibility be? How should journalists, media, blogs, whatever contribute to improve the situation? Decolonize first. That's a big word. How to decolonize. Break it down to the ground. I think they are tools for white supremacy, to maintain white supremacy. They are agents just to propagate what they have made to do. But I mean, white supremacy is a big context and it has to be maintained. So one of the main tools is media. And even in the big discussions about topics that touch on other people, migration, tell me which one you have seen. that touch on other people, migration. Tell me which one you have seen. But this big talk shows that there is a migrant who is representing the interests of the migrants. You know? How even the terminologies, the way people are presented, it's either you're either a victim or you're a survivor. In between, there's no human being, you know? It's how Africa has been sold. It's diseases, poverty, calamities, you know? This is all what media has propagated. It is how, it is everything. It's a tool. And the minute they uphold the truth in what, I mean, we are calling about responsible journalism. Like, for example, now what you're doing to enable and to allow the voices of other people, of us, others others to be heard then that's the point you know so media has a very big role and it's amazing it's a big deal the media has sold the lack they are paid to sell the lot the media in the U.S. has basically been bought. It's been bought. Money talks, and they say bullshit walks, but bullshit talks too. And the thing is, the media has been playing, it supports the narrative of this, what she's saying. They support it. The white supremacy. Let's look at it like this. You have billionaires in the world and they are they ain't all white white is a concept but when you have wealth it all goes together in terms of the media well fortunately we have the new meat that what you say what you call the telephone this media twitter and the facebook yeah yeah you call the telephone, this media. Twitter and the Facebook, yeah. Yeah, I mean, the people, the media in the U.S., I mean, it's paid for. I mean, it's like that. It's not true. It's not true. The people in the U.S. have no idea about Africa. Everything about Africa is negative. Nothing is good about Africa. Africa is poor. Africa is not poor, it's raw. We know that. But the media goes along with here also. But I mean, part of it is ignorance. The people in the media don't travel and go to places, but they're the ones speaking because they're paid to speak. This is, you say, modern colonialism on steroids. And I think I would amplify what Doug is saying, because when you want to leave here and go to Africa even when you have not gone because it's marketed for tourism and when it's talked about tourism, if you look at National Geographic and those documentaries, they have details even how animals mate. They just show animals. I know. People don't like African They just show animals. Yeah. I know. But they have no... People don't like African documentaries showing people. They have details on animals, but not the human beings. I know. And if they want to do coverage, they want to go to the ghettos of Africa when there's something like Ebola, when there's something catastrophic. And that's how they want to sell Africa. There is another bizarre narrative that regarding all these national parks, people are considered a danger for animals. And that's it. are considered a danger for animals. And that's it. But then again, we also know these conservatives, these conservations that were left by the colonizers, when you look at all these conservations, there are minerals beneath. So it's not a very big topic to also not talk about the wealth of countries and project on animals, because in the process of protecting animals from human beings, they use that situation to keep mining the minerals in the continents. So that's how it is. roads in the in the continents so that's how it is i want to give an example because again i said it depends on who goes where when a white person goes to africa their expatriates or or tourist or investors you know those big names eh how many times do you people go for um holidays and you live here go to ken Kenya and you can find everything you want online. But when you want to find about the issues that pertain Africa, then we talk about ignorance. And there's ignorance and there's casual amnesia, just forget on some topics. And this is where we don't know when it is ignorance and when it is partial amnesia because it's a choice. We want to build walls around our resources and build walls around the resources of Africa and nobody will come here. You know the walls they're building against people of Africa. We build walls around our resources that the white people don't get our resources. Africa can set up its own Frontex. Yeah. And you will not see any African here. Yes. Wow. and you will not see any African here yes wow there's a lot of other questions coming up in my mind meanwhile let's address why people are leaving Africa unfair trade the consequences of colonization post colonial, climate issues, continued exploitation of resources, cheap labor in terms of everything, and a big majority of the things that are consumed in Europe, someone is being exploited with cheap labor. So if we could address why people are leaving Africa, then we could have a conversation. They also experienced in Africa a lot of corruption. Yeah. And I can really understand what you're talking about. Yeah. But corruption is relevant. Even here there's lobbyism. Yeah. So it depends who is saying if Africa is corrupt, is relevant. Even here there is lobbyism. It depends who is saying. If Africa is corrupt, if it's Europe, it's lobbyism. Okay. Thank you very much. I would like to end up here. Yeah. It was a great talk with a lot of further questions coming up. But nevertheless, thank you very much to all of you. Thank you Jennifer. Yeah. Yeah. Vielen Dank. Vielen Dank vor allem auch, das habe ich eingangs nicht erwähnt, natürlich auch an das Raumschiff, wo wir heute wieder zu Gast sein durften. Es wird natürlich noch weitere Folgen geben in der Reihe von Einspruch Widerrede. Verfolgen Sie das Programm auf der Website vom Raumschiff oder in den Medien. Auf alle Fälle wünsche ich allen noch einen schönen Abend. Auf Wiedersehen. Es gibt hier noch eine Bar, wo wir noch was trinken dürfen und da können wir ja auch noch das ein oder andere Gespräch fortsetzen. Vielen herzlichen Dank. Thank you very much.