Hello and welcome to the third day of Klangmanifeste. Today we have a very special thing, because our panel discussion this year, I have here amazing guests, and it's about a very complicated topic, but Corona nevertheless should not mean that we are not talking about anything else. So today we speak about Don't You World Me? Exclusiveness and Inclusiveness in Contemporary Music and Sound Art. Well I think I will not waste much time because we have a lot to speak about today. So at first I ask you to introduce yourself. Rosa? Hello everybody out there. My name is Rosa Reitzamer. I'm a music sociologist and I work at the University of Music and Performing Arts Vienna. Bernard? of Music and Performing Arts Vienna. Bernhard? Hello, Bernhard Günther. I'm artistic director of the festival Wien Modern since 2016 and co-director of a second festival which I'm also co-founder of, Zeiträume Basel Biennale für neue Musik und Architektur in Switzerland. And I've been running a third festival for some 12 years in Luxembourg, at Philharmonie Luxembourg, rainy day. So basically, I'm into contemporary music festivals. Golnar? Hello, everybody. My name is Golnar Shahir. I'm a freelance musician since 10 years. I've been doing a lot of different kinds of music. And I also teach music sometimes. Sometimes I curate. So, yeah, that's basically what I do. My name is Christina Jakuba. I'm curator and founder of Klangmanifeste. And I'm your moderation for this evening. So, if I look at my cell phone, this is not because I'm super bored, it's because I'm interested also in your questions, audience out there, whoever it might be. You can post a question in the chat and I will look it up and forward the questions to whomever it is addressed in this round. So please do that because usually our panel discussions at Gangmanifest are with a lot of involvement of the audience, but this year we cannot do it like that, so please chat a bit with us. I would actually open up the discussion with complicated yet easy questions. What is actually your personal perspective on culture? Karna, would you like to start? I think culture is a set of habits, set of practices that defines our personal but also the community beliefs, sets of beliefs and identities. So there are different kinds of practices in culture. It's a tricky thing to define, but when I studied, among other things, ethnomusicology, I learned two things which culture is not. It is never pure and it is never staying the same. So it's always mixed up of different things and it's always changing. So. Well, I would all agree what you say. And because what you ask for me, what is culture for ourselves personally? For me personally, I would say I can only say what it is not for me. It's not restricted to a certain kind of music or art or visual art or a kind of genre. visual art or a kind of genre nor I do not want to restrict culture to western art music or something like this and for me personally the great thing on culture and on art, probably we talk about art, is there are so many things out there that I can challenge myself every day. so many things out there that I can challenge myself every day. There's actually, for me personally, a very important wording of uttering and de-uttering that I learned on my researches on diversity in arts and music. And actually, for me, it was interesting in a way that when you define your culture and you want to include other cultures you are always on a position that you define something that is actually already in culture from your position and then you have the other which is usually named the concept of othering and my next question to you is actually referring on this issue. How do we define our concepts of culture when we speak about the other? Who wants to start? Can you repeat your question? How do we find those concepts of the other culture and the culture? And how can we go beyond these borders or this confrontation? Lady. I think if we talk about the other or othering, othering is a concept, it's closely related and brought up by several variants of post-colonial critique. And post-colonial critique goes back to a long time. We even could say it began in the 1920s. But what's some key ideas or moments about this concept of othering is that, and I like to quote here Stuart Hall, is that othering begins with stereotyping. If we start to think and to speak about we and the other, then we have already moments of stereotyping. And from stereotyping, the way to racism and othering is quite short. So from my point of view, we have to be quite careful when we say we and they, who we actually mean. And we also, I think, have to question ourselves, how far does it go if we think in these categories and in these terms? Do you want to go? Yes, thank you so much for this. I think othering is a way that human works. It doesn't really belong to a certain time. Humans need to trust each other in order to function in a community. So othering is, I go one step before, we talked about culture, and I believe culture is a set of practices. And if you share a set of practice, meaning you share a set of beliefs with a few people, then you can trust these people, our community, easier. So I think it's about trust, creating trust. And where we are talking about othering, we are talking about the sets of practices that are not familiar to us, which we don't, we can't really trust. Right. So this, really trust, right? So this, let's say, in human psychology, this is the way it works, can really can have really bad consequences, of course, if it doesn't get reflected on, because these stereotypes, as Rosa said, could be very harmful. And these stereotypes could go from the way you look, your skin color, like this is the most famous one, the skin color, but also the way you talk, the way you walk, your language, what kind of food you eat, what dress you wear, what kind of music or culture, I mean, art you consume and produce, going back to our topic. So if these stereotypes do not get re-evaluated, then it could have really bad consequences. So this is when the othering really happens. But the bad consequences of othering is if we don't re-evaluate our stereotypes all the time. This is what the moving and organic culture means. And the organic culture is always redefining itself, is in interaction with itself and also its surrounding. So this is what I think. also its surrounding. So this is what I think. Yeah, to be very honest, I'm not really aware with the discourse around othering and the word othering, but I mean, I may be wrong, but I think it's everywhere. So it's not only in culture, but it's very much in political discourse, for example. So if you do linguistical analysis of political discourse, for example. So if you do linguistical analysis of political speeches, for example, there's a lot of mechanisms which is used to say, this is us and this is them and so on. So there's a lot in... This is one of the basic mechanisms of populism, for example. But I think it's also in a jazz club because you like this musician, you don't like that musician, and it may be a very fine border that's completely invisible to somebody else. So I think it's really everywhere. It's in political discourse, it's in nationalism, but it's also in art scenes or in families, or between neighbors, or something. I think it's, I don't know whether it's fair to say we all have sort of to watch out against this mechanism, because you can fall into othering very quickly all the time, everywhere but I think we have to be we should make a distinction between othering and to distinguish something because to distinguish jazz musicians from one another when they perform does not necessarily mean that I'm involved in uttering. This is probably more a question of what do I value and well evaluation and evaluation can be certainly involved in processes of uttering, but not necessarily. This is, I think, one thing we should be clear about. And the other thing is that uttering happens on many different levels. Uttering on the level of nation states, which we find a lot in political discourses, very much, which we find a lot in political discourses. And then we can also have a lot of othering on a level of institutions and organizations. And then we also can see this in everyday practices in everyday life. I think one result of othering is the control of assets, economical assets and social assets. So there is a reason for othering, favoring a few identities that also for that community to have a sense of belonging, sense of security, you know, so these things all play in that mechanism of othering. Yeah, that actually goes to my next question because the cards are not equally mixed, so othering as itself wouldn't be the problem if everyone would have the same chances. Actually we're living in a world that has a kind of dominant cultures and less dominant cultures, and also the situations are, of course, changing and fluent, but we're having a kind of heritage that is very Eurocentric-dominated. How do you think... Like, as the title, as we had, Don't You World Me also comes in a way that if you're doing a kind of music that is actually very complicated, but still it's not filling up the usual codes, then it's very easy, yeah, let's put it into world, because in world there is everything else, and it's a bit different, so let's say it's world music. And actually I think we're in music, we are beyond the issue of world music, but it's still existing. How do you think, how can we get out of this? Well, let's just explain what world music is, actually, because a lot of people don't know the problem about this expression. And it's not an expression, actually. It's a marketing. It's a market, actually. And it's not an expression, actually. It's a marketing. It's a market, actually. It's a commercial world expression to sell what is not related to... It's also hard to define when I say European music or European-based music or Western-based music. Whatever that doesn't fall into that category falls into the category of world music. And you talked about codes. And it's really true. In music, everybody says music is a universal language. Everybody knows there are codes in the music that differentiate you as it makes you the other. that differentiate you as makes you the other, right? So the world music, in my opinion, is a commercial term to sell that kind of music that exists. It's like 90% of musical expressions of the world, but it's just described in one word. And this, in fact, expression doesn't, or the using of it, doesn't allow the musicians or the music to have diversity, to have depth, to have possibility for growth, to have innovation. These are not the concepts that you can have. You don't need to have them. All you need is to go and play the music or represent yourself based on the stereotypes that are already out there. You talked about stereotypes. And your chances to get into that market is quite high depending on which culture is at the moment the favorites the exotified culture so there are a lot of problems in that and this word does not have anything to do with the organic and living cultures out there. It's purely a commercial word. And there's a lot of problems for that. Because if your identity, your bodily identity, and your musical identity is not in line with the European or Western kind of music, and on that we need to define what that is. But if that is not in line, you are automatically put into the category of world music, and you have no way to come out of it, no matter what you do, no matter what kind of music you make. So just give one example example and I will finish. Imagine Austria has 8 million people. And in Austria, we already have a big variety of diversity. Okay? I come from a country with 80 million people, enormous ethical and cultural diversity, religious, everything. And for the people who, in the West, when they talk about Iranian music, all they talk about is traditional music, and Iranian music as something mystical. And they basically ignore the enormous diversity that is out there and the organic culture that is happening there. So whatever is happening here, you know, redefining the culture, you know, mingling with other cultures, is also happening there. So how can you describe that under one word? It's impossible. It takes away the dignity and the real life experience of those cultures. Maybe we stick with this term world music for a while because I think it might be helpful. As far as I learned to know the term world music, it was a commercial label from the record industry. So I went for a couple of years. I had to go to Medium in France, where the recording industry is having a big trade fair, and there it's always classified like pop, rock, urban, R&B. And world music is, I think, was a label that was created from that perspective where rock and pop are the biggest chunks and everything else is just a smaller phenomenon. So maybe it's not only a problem of a Western perspective but also a problem of a very capitalist market perspective. It's trying to see everything within music as a potential product and trying to see how it can be sold most effectively. So that is probably, it's probably already a multi-layered problem, this term of world music, because, I mean, of course, as you say, it's a ridiculous term because it's what, I mean, everything is world music because we're on the bloody world. I mean, so it's at least two-layered problem of perspective. And also, I mean, I don't know, I'm in no position to say anything about the recording industry or about pop and rock music or about the big market of commercial music industry. It's all very far from the way I am working with music. But I think it's certainly dealing with differentians in a very rough and goal oriented and capitalist way so that probably explains why it's such a strange and stupid and undifferentiated label, I don't know, it's just a very imprecise theory but yeah I think world music is really it's an interesting label because it's so stupid sorry I don't want to hurt anybody I was just wondering what you said is how to create a music festival that does not engage in some ways with the music industry. I mean, I cannot imagine this, but maybe I'm a little bit restricted in this perspective. Well, I think organizing not-for-profit live events and selling records is two extremely different things of working within the world of music. So it's really, I mean, basically I don't see a music festival as something which is selling a product. We're not trying to sell a product, but we're trying to bring people together. It's very much about creating a platform where people can actually meet in one room, except in times of pandemic, get together, be quiet, listen to music and talk about it. So the whole thing is very much like bound to time and space. And it's not like putting music in some abstract form and trying to sell as many copies as possible. I'm trying to avoid the logics of a mass market as far as possible, because it's more about communication than about selling something. Yeah, that brings me also to my next question. I think where we are working, or where Klang Manifeste is working, is actually more the niche of the niche and the avant-garde of the avant-garde. But especially because of that, it's actually super important to make this step and to find this way of a real hybrid culture. And I think many careers, I would take myself on my nose. It's actually sometimes super difficult at first to find the networks and to find the people. And then you always have this problem if something is really completely out of your usual ways of decoding musical language or art language, then you have to think, is this now a cultural question? Do I don't understand it? Is it not good? Is it very good? Is it good because I don't understand it? Is it not good? Is it very good? Is it good because I don't understand it? I think the solution for many curators is just to invite some successful person that is not coming from the same bubble is not really the solution because it's not creating this vivid flow of hybrid culture where things can develop, where laboratory is starting to rise up, where people influence each other. But maybe I'm the only one with this question. So I actually, because I want to learn something, I would give it to you. How can we curate in a way that is not like a propitiation, that has nothing to do with a quota migrant, but there's this real progressive and penetrating culture production? I think it's a very good question and a very complicated question because I think creating music festivals, live music is a huge part, a huge part of the music industry. So organizing music festivals means contributing to the music industry. It's a way where people, where musicians can present themselves, where they get media appearance and so on and so on. So we can not, from my perspective, separate and single this out from the music industry and certainly not from the popular music industry. So this is. And then the other question is how to find a good way to deal with all these structures and how. And I think the really difficult thing with creating exhibitions, putting together archives, organizing festivals, or you name it, is how to select artists. And whom to give the jobs because at the end of the day the people get paid and people have to pay their rents and have to make their living somehow and this is which criteria do we want if we want to create a festival put together an archive who should be in and who is out and this line is pretty strict i would like to go back to the the what we talked about about world music yes it's a commercial thing but um also what rosa said about who plays in this, okay, non-commercial, you know, creative scene. The reality is that whoever whose identity is not in line with that commercial, the so-called commercial that we know now, has no chance to represent itself. So the festivals who want to avoid commercial, they automatically also avoid that diversity. You know what I mean? So there is no place for anybody that is different. I was a person who was because of my identity was put into the world music and there was no place else for me to work none of the creative musicians really you know platforms really gave me the chance my music was not innovative enough apparently and also in jazz oh my god jazz is the same thing so it took me i'm 10 years i'm creating music one year after year and little by little people are starting to to to after 10 years and this is because also because I'm also verbal about it now. So the reality is that there is no space, other space for others, except that commercial world music. There is no space. That's the reality. And every festival that says they are the gatekeepers of creativity and culture, they are reproducing the same social structure and exclusiveness that already exists in that commercial scene. That is the reality. And how do we deal with that? I think it's an educational problem around how music and this culture around music forms. Also education about the language of music. What could be the language of music? What is innovative? What is old? What is tradition? So they're all knowledge, you know. When we talk about music theory, we talked about this earlier, it's very much based on our knowledge from white musical identity of 18th and 19th century from middle Europe. So whatever else that is out there is not even included in that theory. So our knowledge of what music is is extremely limited. So as curators, I think it's very important to inform oneself about other cultures, how music is being done, and how the cultural activities around the music is happening in other cultures. And the second thing is that coming to a cooperation with other people who have a little bit of different mindset and different approach to music. This is absolutely necessary. Without that, how can you learn? There's no way to learn. There's no way to learn. I mean, each person has their own specialty. So it's impossible to know everything. That's why it's important to do bookings collectively, in collectives. Also, another very important thing, festivals are not out there to represent how cultured we are. There are places, as you said, and I really appreciate that you said it, there are places where people mingle, they socialize, they form culture, or reproduce the same social structures, or they question it. So make room for questioning it. Make room for experimentation. Make room for discussion. This is absolutely necessary. Festival organizers, they think, oh, they have to book, they keep the suffering artists, they make them survive. No, it's more than that. It's a platform where communication happens. And how ready are festivals for this kind of re-evaluation of culture? This is the question. This was the question, yes. Yeah, I think we're talking about two or three different things now. I'll try to sort of maybe bring it back together. One thing is what you asked, which curatorial tools or strategies can avoid too closed choice of music in that case. Another thing was this festivals are part of the industry and so on. If I may, I might take a second to just clarify. When I say I don't consider the festivals that I'm involved with part of the music industry not to sneak out of any responsibility. I think festivals are a really important part of... well, of where music is actually being talked about, being presented, and so on. So I don't deny it's a very big responsibility, and festivals have to act in a responsible way. But still, I think it has very little to do with industry. And also, a festival is not a festival. Not even a jazz festival is a jazz festival. Otherwise, Seyfeld, Ulrichsberg and Nikolsdorf would be the same festival. They are definitely not. But now, about this differentiation thing and about curatorial strategies, I think you mentioned a couple of things where you said form collectives, programming groups, that is certainly one strategy, another one is a very simple one. Forget about taste. I mean, nobody wants to go to a long festival that is based on the taste of one person. Wien Moderne is five weeks long and we have more than 100 events and nobody, really nobody, wants to go to 100 events that are basically representing the taste of one curator. That would be the most boring festival in the world, even if it's one of the more exciting curators running it. But I don't really believe in taste. I think it's important to understand festivals, just talking for the two, three festivals that I can really talk about, as a platform, and as a platform where a not-form or styles or a stylistic field or a cultural field is being discussed. There are propositions made by various artists, and there are responses by an audience, journalists coming or people from the media who will talk about it, and so on and so on. So it's like a, I don't know, like a grocery market where you sort of meet not only to buy but also to drink a beer or to discuss or whatever. And so I think it's important to understand this, that it's nothing that belongs to curators. It's something that belongs to music or that part of music that it has to do with. And I think it's really, really important to keep it as open as possible. Of course, festival is not like something that is completely open, because then nobody would understand what you would experience when you go to that specific festival. But it must be more open than just the taste of one person. That is, I think, really, really extremely important. And there are lots of ways to do that. Do calls for projects, do calls for schools, work with universities, and that will open up immediately. Because then if you just say, OK, I'm working with three universities and you are free to set up projects but try to include as many people as possible, then you will end up with a lot of surprises and with projects and musics and names that you would never have imagined. It's actually, I think it's not so difficult. It's just like you have to have some feeling for the added value of a little bit of openness. It doesn't have to be completely open because, as I said, people want also a profile. The audience expects some sort of profile. We can talk about that later when we come to scenes and styles and things like that maybe. But I think it's really important to have this notion of open a few doors than rather understanding curating as gatekeeping basically. I don't know. I mean that's something that I'm trying to do and I'm probably failing all the time, but I'm trying to do it. Would you like to say something? I just thought about curatorial practices, how to make change, social change happen. change, social change happen. I thought probably if we start with the idea that every festival needs a space, a physical space, we are more unfortunately moving now to the digital space, which can be fun too, but not that much fun. Spaces can create huge symbolic borders for people. If I choose high representative spaces and places, if I would like to do that, it's a good way to keep certain people away. So I think, especially for established music and art festivals, music festivals, let's stick with music festivals, I think changing the spaces would do a lot in this way. And another curatorial strategy could be to create festivals in teams. I think this is more or less today's state of the art. But if these teams are too homogeneous, I don't think we don't get very far. I mean, I have to come back to the music industry. If we look at the restructuring of the music industry in the mid-1960s, mid-late 1960s, I mean, the people who did this were white, middle-class men in the United States and Britain, and they thought of themselves how innovative and diverse they are. But the outcome was very homogeneous, as they were and are. So, creating in themes, we have to really think who makes up which members should become these teams. And then another curatorial strategy, I think, if there is a curatorial team already, I mean, this curatorial team could make the decision to give slots to other people to co-curate, to say, okay, that's your space, that's your money, do with it what you want and bring in other people. And we don't interfere, as long as it doesn't cost three times as much. That's a very fantastic suggestion and I also want to come back to what you said the feeling of being welcome in a space right so there are certain places that they say it's the house of music, church of music, Musikverein. This is really like the branding of Musikverein, it's like church of music. But it's how much you feel welcome there, how much you feel welcome in that space that is dedicated to music. And a lot of times when you say um you you make open calls there are a lot of people who don't even think that this is their space it took me years myself to realize oh i can be a part of that particular space you know you um there are a lot of restrictions and walls in the society and music is a way of practicing these walls, reproducing these structures so if you don't change those structures people accept those structures and you internalize those beliefs those sets of structures, not everybody get out of that you know so um we have to be aware of these realities these are realities the kind of music that we for example let's say classical music typical european. This is the reality of it. For me, the Zeitgenössische Musik is actually the same. It's just a different, the modern way of doing it. It's basically the same structure, social structure, I'm sorry, it's exactly the same social social structure. I'm not talking about music approach, it's exactly the same social, social structure. I'm not talking about music approach, it's exactly the same social structure. So in doing, in getting rid of that rigidness of the tradition in the classical music, the contemporary scene has created an exclusive atmosphere in which they are reproducing the same social structure under the way of freedom I'm sorry it's not free it's not free this is not how it's been practiced do you like no just one thing I mean we talked before about the label world music I think that classical music is also very diverse. Very diverse. Yes, it's hard to say, I know. But classical music now is also a brand. It's fantastic, it's a very successful brand, sells everywhere. I mean, all the places. If you're a classical musician, if you are a classically trained musician from Europe, you want to go, you work in Iran, you're going to be good. You can make money. But it's different other way around, right? So classical music has a very, European classical music has a strong asset, has created a very strong asset for itself. And this goes back to the identity of white, colonialism, all these social and economical structures that exist. And the practice of music still practices those social structures. You know what I mean? There's no questioning it now people say they want to have equality, they want to give space but in their music practice this is not happening before I go to you I just would like to differ a bit between classical music, contemporary classic and experimental music because I think the rules and the circumstances are rather different anyway of course there are many points you completely white risk do you want to add actually something to what Golnar said Bernhard yeah I mean I completely understand this perception because I mean I think it's really important to say that contemporary music is not just contemporary classical music but also experimental music or whatever. I mean, a sound installation is contemporary music as well as a contemporary orchestra piece or a contemporary string quartet or a dance performance with electronic noise is also maybe part of the domain of contemporary arts music or whatever. I sort of prefer the term contemporary arts music because then it's contemporary music is even more unclear probably. But I completely understand this perception because indeed what got on my nerves when I learned to know this field, I mean, I started as a cellist and I was just getting interested in non-classical repertoire. So this is how I came into the whole contemporary arts music world. And it was incredible because there were all these old masters and people gathered around them and said, oh,hausen fantastic and and it was like in a church I have to say I mean being in Darmstadt or Donaueschingen in the 1990s had this kind of oh they're the big masters and now we have all to be like very so it had these this thing and and and there was, for example, in the post-war avant-garde, which has ruined the reputation of contemporary arts music until now, the notion was that everybody is too stupid to understand what it is about. And only, I mean, there's an anecdote from Karlheinz Stockhausen who said, like, he was talking about serialism and how it's made and so on, and there was a flute player who asked, look, we're all sort of from the same profession. Couldn't you just explain how it works? And he says, who is of my profession? So it's just like the bloody masters, they're the only ones who know and they don't even want to share, actually. So that was the cliche that sort of made the reputation of contemporary music as it is, something which is elite, which is only run by old white men and things like that. And I'm sorry, to that extent, it's really true. That is a problem of contemporary arts music I don't think that the music that is being written and performed in that wide area is still limited to that cliche I make it a point that it's not but I completely understand this problematic perception. Because, I mean, if you look, for example, now to blame my festival, if you look on what Wien Modern did in the 1980s when it was being founded in 1998, there was very little effort to do anything that has to do with younger composers. There was not a single woman composer. There were very little efforts to share knowledge about this music. Okay, they did the catalogue and so on, which is sort of giving access to the whole thoughts and theory and aesthetics behind this music and so on. And they were doing the concerts, of course, which is a good thing. But I mean compared to what we're trying to do now is like to open up to the younger generation, to work with students, to make it as diverse as possible, to share, to do audience development and so on and so on. This has not been done for decades and decades and decades and we're talking basically since the 1920s or something like that from Schoenberg's time when they did this famous Verein für musikalische Privataufführung where the audience wasn't even allowed to react or to clap or to boo or something because it was only the big masters who decided what was good and what was bad. So that is the problem of contemporary arts music. I quite agree, I have to say, and we have to change that. Yeah, I would also agree on that and that it's definitely time to change that. And I would also like another thing, because you've spoken about this welcomeness, and this is actually a thing that I think a lot about, because most of my friends that are not born and raised here, they say, yeah, well, it works, but it just takes forever. Like, I mean, you spend a lot of time in Austria to go somewhere, meet meet somebody be super interested and then at one point it just becomes becomes natural and then then these borders kind of disappear but it just takes very long and I think our scenes many scenes maybe many scenes, maybe not ours, but maybe also ours, they really kind of have an aura of inaccessibility. So even if actually it's not there, because actually you're kind of craving for people reacting on your calls and you kind of try to be open, write this kind of laboratory, somehow this aura of white old man music is following you? And I ask myself... That's actually not restricted to Western art music. No, not restricted at all. But any music with... With paper microphones? Yeah. Do you? Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't want to... What you wanted to say? I mean, I just wanted to explain that this scene has a kind of aura. This is actually not really representing the way it is really structured. But it makes this long distance barriers and it's maybe also the reason why this kind of hybrid environment where things can... Because if you create a team, there needs to be a bit before you cannot just mix people together because somebody is not from Vienna you need to create an environment you need to work together you need to know each other so at the first step is actually creating a culture of welcomeness and of openness and this is one of the things I really ask myself which ways would you see to push it up a little bit, to speed it up a little bit? Because, yeah, you're right, since 60 years we're having this situation, we're having a long transition since 500 years, but there must be ways to move on a little bit faster. I mean, I could ask a provocative question. Who is willing to give up privileges? Well, I mean, honestly spoken, in the experimental music scene, there's not much privilege to give up, so it would not be so difficult. But in general, yeah. But you think... I mean, modern is huge privilege. Compared to what? There's no... Okay, I just want to give you a sense of privilege. Compared to some kind of do-it-yourself music festival, it's a huge privilege and huge money. That's quite true, yes. Also, the notion of the free scene suffering artist. Try to be a world musician. And I will tell you what privilege is. You know what I mean? So there are already subsidies for this kind of music. There's a lot of infrastructure, at least. You won't get rich with it. But at least you have this social asset. You are already in the community of the creative minds. And if your identity is not in line with that you're not even in this pool of people who are considered to be creative you know and and therefore you you won't get a chance to i don't know play in better places you know work in a little bit better under better conditions you know what i mean so they all influence each other. But I think generally, and music is just one example for this, but we can take the whole creative industry sector. I mean, how do people get jobs there? You have to do a lot of networking, and this networking is informally organized, and it disadvantages and when by now we have really a lot of sociological studies about this informal networking is a disadvantage for women and people of, and, you know, if we not try to bring about change there and to make it a little bit broader and to stop in these informal networks harass, sexually harass and physically harass other people, we won't bring about change. And this is really, I mean, a few weeks ago, I read a study about creative industries. A colleague of mine who did this research, she interviewed over 400 women working in the cultural industries, all kinds. And more than 300 said they were at least one time sexually harassed. And this is quite frightening. And if, you know, and then we have this whole post-feminist ideas which start you have to arrange women we, meaning women or people of color, we have to arrange ourselves and then we go in a direction where we start to agree with it. We get used to it. And we get used to things we should not get used to it. Because this is reproduction of hierarchical power structures. And I think this is, you know, when we talk about curating, okay, this is one thing. We are already on a very formal level. Curators can give invitations, pay artists, but below this, there is a huge informal structure. And this is, I think we have to work a lot on this, actually. Yeah, I mean, that's true. I completely agree that the world outside, let's put it like this, I mean, there are things like citizenships, there are things like economic disadvantages of people not born in Austria, there are disadvantages for women. disadvantages of people not born in Austria. There are disadvantages for women. And absolutely it's time to work on that and to change things on that. Just what I was aiming today was like a bit maybe also a kind of utopian idea to continue to work out like a bit idols from where we can also start a kind of process that is a more solidaric culture that is like creating more scenes because from there you have a completely different perspective how you can argument if you have kind of scenes that are like diverse and they are solidaric to each other where these topics can be talked about, then maybe there is a way to also be much more concrete on a political level on these things. So just to explain why I was a bit getting out of the big topics today. Well, I think I would like to go back. This is an answer to your question about how do we deal with this invisible networking exclusive? How could we deal with that? How does that function? I mean, I can tell how does that function. I mean, from experience, it's the feeling that you do not exist. And people don't come to see your work. And it's a one-way street, kind of, for you. You give, you give, you give, but it does, it's not coming back. And it's quite brutal. How do we change that? Because people, I mean, they're used to their community, their, their buddies, and, you know, they're used to playing with them. They're used to hang out with them. And also it's, it's, it's a little bit bit i don't want to say it's austria but maybe it is also a bit cultural here that people know there are different things out there but they don't really want to invest energy to know that it's like yeah but i don but I don't want it. So not having the interest to get to know what is not in your comfort zone. So how do we deal with that? How do we create as curators places where the actual practitioners of culture, meaning the musicians, the curators, the journalists, oh my god, all of them, all of them, come together and communicate, man, they just talk, we have so much to talk about, there's so many things to talk about, and then we can talk about this utopia, but before that, it's impossible to get there we need to communicate how do we treat how do we deal with that do you have any any suggestions i mean this is i think this is part of the responsibility and the the possibility of To see that there is, for example, some area in a music scene or in a field of music which is not seen enough or not highlighted enough or not represented enough and to try to change that. The thing is, it works probably as soon as we try to convince the audience, I don't know, to basically, to make the audience want to listen to that music. That's something that is part of the work of curators. And it's, I don't know how it works. I mean, there's no simple explanation, but I feel it's kind of the responsibility. You can't just go as a curator or as a musician and say, look, this is important, but you have to convince the audience and you have to maybe insist or maybe, I don't know, maybe do decisions, like put something that could only be heard in this on a small stage as here in Echelraum and to put it in to put it into a big hall in front of many people and and try to make many people notice that it exists. So it's something that's really hard work. I can only give one example. For example, when I started to work for Wien Moderne in 2016, in my previous life I had been working a lot more with DJs and electronic music and improvisation and so on and so on. A lot more than the audience at Wien Modern was used to listen to. So I tried to bring a little bit of improvised music to start with in the 2016 festival. And it was a concert at Beriozal, Luc X and his band and so on. And we looked a little bit at the reservations for the evening and said, ooh, this will be very full. If only a couple of those Generalpass audience will come. Almost none of them came, because they were not, they did not, they were not interested. Oh, it's improvised music, now we'll make it an evening off, or something like that, probably. So I knew I had to think better about it, and how to share the perception, does this part of contemporary arts music, which is improvised music, is worth listening to, is super interesting and can be really, really inspiring. So it was not just putting it on the program, but it was putting it on the program in a more strategical way, communicating it in a better way, and so on. It's hard work. Because in the end, in a festival, something works when it's not only the artists on stage but the audience in the hall so and this is really this is hard physical work and it's something that is part of this this job of curating I'm sorry it's yes not very an explanation how to do it but I think this is this is something that people who curate programs can do and are supposed to do it's only not easy to do because I think it's really important to I would never say educate because it's not educating it's like showing that there is something that they didn't notice before which might be super interesting. And sharing it and talking about it. I think you're talking about the result of what could we do. I mean, a lot of things that we talked about is behind-the-scene work. How do we deal with the invisible networks and structures that actually excludes a few and excludes some and keeps the privilege of a few actually. You mean even noticing that curators do even notice that there is other music? How do you deal with that? Like as a curator because that's your question. How do we create a space which is inclusive? How do we deal with this exclusivity within the scene? That is a little bit of behind the scene work. What you're saying is the result could be the result of it. I have a feeling because you already also mentioned the audience another time, so second time. One question is, for whom are you making culture? Who is your audience? Who do you want to satisfy? Why are you so scared? Why? I mean, if you... I understand that it has to have commercial... But hey, you're... I mean, also, it's not about your festival here. We're talking about a system, but now that you mentioned it, you have so much budget. Why don't you risk a bit more? So that's a result of it. And really, I think you have to ask yourself, for whom are you making this? Who is your audience? Who do you want to reach this is a very important thing also in all the other contemporary music and experimental music who are the audience this is actually a really good question i mean we are now actually we spoke one hour we said we will speak one hour. But still, so actually, because we still will hear your wonderful concert, I would suggest to make kind of final rounds. But I would really love to continue these conversations and continue with this issue. Because I think one evening is far too short to get in all layers. Comments? So questions from the audience? This will be our final round, the questions from the audience. It's super mean that exactly in the moment when I need it, the chat broke. Sarah, can you tell me the question? One comment is that some openings should come from a structural change, needed the chat broke Sarah can you tell me the question inclusivity in contemporary music ensembles? Where are all those musicians who come from other cultures in these ensembles? Why most of the jazz contemporary ensembles in Austria just include the white musicians? And if you agree with me, how can we change it? Yes. That's a very good question. Who wants to answer it? Well, I can confirm it 100%. Yeah? But maybe the guests want to comment about this. I think it's already changing, because when I work with very young ensembles from the universities, it's a lot more diverse, I think. So I think it's about to change. I mean, it's a bit hard to blame an ensemble which has been founded 50 years ago, why they did what they did. We can only wonder why they did, or we can find it strange, or we can find it very strange that Wien Modern was started in 1988 without a single woman composer, for example. So there are many strange things where we can ask ourselves, why is it like that? It should be different. But I think ensembles which are being founded right now look to me a lot more diverse than they looked 30 years ago. So I think some start is underway. I think that this would be another question for a next discussion. I think we should clarify the term diverse and diversity. I mean, sure, if you go to an elite music university in Austria, they are more diverse compared to the old ensemble comprising of five or four old men. Simply in terms of age, they are more diverse. But this is, you know, we didn't achieve anything with this yet. Okay, we have younger people, but is age such a big thing in Western art music? It really matters a lot when we talk about that all the musicians have to start to learn the instruments when they are babies by now. Otherwise, they never make it. This is a really frightening idea to me. But with age, it's not much, you know, because at the music universities in Austria, in Germany, I mean, we have white middle-class people who really grew up in families who value to learn a classical music instrument. who value to learn a classical music instrument. But this is also only a very small percentage of people who perform music in Austria. And probably who have better performance than some kind of people who started to learn the violin when they were three years old. Because music is not about higher, better, faster. Even if some people think so in Western art music. Sorry, a comment about that. You talked about education system, which is an absolute necessity to talk about. The education system is reproducing these structures. Who gets to the schools, as you said, there are codes who get to the school. And even in the schools that you referred to, cooperation in the schools, the universities for me doesn't represent that kind of musical diversity first. Forget the musical diversity. Okay, the universities for me doesn't represent that kind of musical diversity first. Forget the musical diversity. Okay, the representation of the body, okay, maybe the person comes from, I don't know, Iran or Japan or China or, you know. But that to me doesn't bring the musical diversity, cultural diversity, something that's your different view about culture. And yes, it's a question of, because usually these kinds of music, the contemporary or experimental music, all these things, also jazz, you need to go, the knowledge of them has been monopolized in the schools. So in order to get into that scene, you need to go through these gates. If you don't go through these gates, you're not considered to be one. So you will never get a chance to play in a jazz band. And if you look at it, I mean, how many people of color do we have in jazz institutions? Just have a look around yourself. This is the specialized music with which you can create a better, prosperous life around your ability, about your musical asset, right? And people are not given the same chance to invest in their talent, invest in their ability, invest in their knowledge. Basically, the gates are closed for a lot of people. May I add one last? Sorry, I have to... I didn't want to make a final statement, but now I need to. I have to feel I need to. I think probably to say something a little bit positive at the end. I think it's really when we talk about the education system, higher music education institutions, but then also to admission exams, but also more generally to audiences at music festivals. We can really ask what do people value? And we all make judgments and for me it's sometimes really quite difficult to understand how they justify their judgments because if we really listen carefully to people and we try to find out how to justify certain decisions, I think we can see that there is a change in argumentation because if we take women as example, that there is a change in argumentation. Because if we take women as example, in modern, when it started, I mean, it was probably not even a question if there should be a female composer. Nobody thought about it, I think, in the beginning. So then there came the time when suddenly it became a question because there was, thanks God, goddess, we have feminism. So there came the time, so there was pressure why there are no female composers, why there are so few female musicians on stage. And it's not only about Wien Modern, it's about many festivals, also in electronic dance music festivals, we know this. And then we had the traditional arguments, how to justify these decisions was women get pregnant, women have all kinds of problems, very naturalistic and biological arguments. And now, at the beginning of the 21st century, it's not so easy anymore to justify these decisions. And I think that's good, because these things get more ambivalent to make such decisions. And for me, that's not a big step in the right direction, but it's a step in the right direction, but it's a step in the right direction. Okay, one last word. Sorry, I was very long now. It's just about this notion of quality. I mean, curators talking about quality has avoided a lot of things opening up and I think it's it's a good moment to to say that okay maybe this notion of quality is first changing then different from each single perspective and then it's not the only perspective but we must keep other perspectives in mind so if it happens to you that you think about a music program and there is not a single woman composer in a festival, then it's just wrong. The rest may be good music and may meet all quality criteria, whatever they are, but it's just not possible. Or if you are completely missing out on other areas of diversity that are an important topic in society and you're just blind in that spot, then start to see. And I think that's really important. I mean, this is, we talked when we prepared the discussion a lot about this quality issue. And I think it's really important to get aware that quality can maybe be a nice thing when you think about music, but it can also inhibit many important things. So it's really important to be balanced with other things than quality. I think I still have to give another last word to go. Thank you. I think the quality is a very important topic that we didn't get to talk about. Who decides quality? What are the criterias? How it's defined? And in which context? And also, we are not living in an equal society where everybody has the chance to invest in their music, to have the best, top, highest quality. We need to think about these things. When we talk about equity, there's a difference between equality and equity. Equity is a concept where you give special space for people who have been systematically marginalized, who could not invest as much systematically and also generation after generation on their specialty you know so you give them a different chance to the people who were systematically supported you know so as a curator one has to think that so okay is the top quality as I know it under the definition of the universities my top goal? Or creating that kind of dialogue within my space? What is my goal? And also, each one of us have our own specialty. As you said, it's impossible to judge things you don't know. So again, going back to how to curate, it's very important to work with specialists from different networks, different cultural music cultures, different approaches of music, to use their expertise. Also, not people who basically just come, you're Iranian, just come and book with me. You know, one has to be smart about it, to bring people who really have that kind of social, they care about these things, you know. And they are aware of the way music functions. So they really contribute to the diversity, not to reproduce the same social structure. You know what I mean? So it's a very, for curators who are already in power, it's a very delicate situation, this decision making, with whom I would want to collaborate. Where do I want to go? And what are my priorities now? And I hope these priorities change year after year. I'm sure it will. These kinds of discussions are creating that kind of weiterbildung für uns alle, for all of us. That's my perfect hook for my final words. Because actually, hearing this wonderful discussion today, remembering last year when we started this discussion, I actually think this is something where you could really talk a lot about it. I think this is a topic that might follow us in Klangmanifest during the next years. There are many things we spoke about. There are many things we did not speak about. I have a huge checklist now on things that I actually would still to deal with. But for today, I think, thank you a lot. I would finish the discussion. I also have a little bit to say about ongoing Klangmanifeste, because you still can see our exhibition concept for this year on the advertising pillars until the 6th of April and also during the lockdown because you just can basically do individually a walk, take your cell phone, take your speakers like your headphones and watch all the wonderful works and actually spend like four hours outside to see it. Highly recommended. Klangmanifeste, officially the like inside part ends today with the lockdown. We now have a short video from Stefano D'Alessio about his augmented reality work, about his environment. We will show it in between so Golna can actually prepare for her concert. And then we will see Golna and then I will say goodbye. So for now, stay tuned. Bye. Bye. Bye. Children being abused in Hollywood. Hi, I'm whatever it is, come on yo! They are full-blown Satanists and they openly display that. Hi, I'm Stefano D'Alessio and for this year's Clang Manifesto I created a virtual environment for the audience to either visit directly with their mobile devices while having their sound walks through the city or by visiting Echo Realm and enjoying their video installation The environment is built using the Mozilla Hubs platform This means that it is a social virtual environment where the visitors are able to move in a three-dimensional space, listen, watch and also talk and interact with other people. This means that any outside visitor can interact with Echoraum in real time. Most of these government institutions that are supposed to save kids from how to file. And when you wake up to that it's hard, it's hard to make sense. They're actually friends, two traffic kids. The environment is an audio-visual space made of conspiracy theories. In this space there are 16 different characters, 16 humanoid figures. The numbers do not add up to what NASA says. They are scattered around the area. Their gaze is lost in flickering screens. Their movements are subtle, slow and repetitive. When approached, the screens become hearable. Each of them is an audio source where the close listener can hear about a particular conspiracy theory. When we're making, issuing in our last tweets. An ever changing sky of conspiracies surrounds the whole space multiple layers of scrolling distorted texts move above the visitor's head the ground is fragmented and even distorted as the humanoid that stands on it everything is split apart in triangular shapes split apart in triangular shapes. The environment is foggy, ethereal, broken. A distort speaking voice is permeating the whole space. Someone is talking to a crowd. Someone is talking to a crowd. Immaterial dark walls slowly move through the space are the result of an internet-based research on alternative facts gathered on various social media and media hosting platforms. They are an assemblage of original sound recordings and recorded readings of original texts from the 2020 wave of internet spread conspiracy theories. A lot of our entertainers, a lot of our people on TV, a lot of our government... These media are a documentation of multiple currents of alternative interpretations of reality...a world that was constructed by people who worshiped Satan... which generated and proliferated within the internet virtual realm and ended up heavily influencing our society. For the installation at Echo Realm, I developed a corona-friendly remote control. The audience in the room can scan a QR code that they can find on a screen installed nearby the video projection and land on a web page where they can use their own phone or tablets as a touchscreen control for the installation. In this way the audience is able to control the projection, explore the virtual environment and listen to the collection of conspiracy stories through the room speakers. This virtual space has been created for the clang manifesto but it is going to be available at the same URL also after the festival period so everybody is welcome to visit and explore it. Ketika kita berada di kota, kita akan berjumpa dengan orang lain. Thank you. Neni, neni, neni, sussum qua no ar uma nova silêncio no ar no outro no outro no outro silêncio no ar Μόνο δυσκολία Δυσκολία piano plays softly Gjødning Nel muni Nem nis mudrake, Nem nis nave. I love you. Sondetre abas eidena E Nenhum, nenhum, nenhum Sou andava eu, sou eu Oh, ma sédité Oh, ma sédité Oh, ma Ah piano plays softly 문화고양이 만나고야 만나고야 만나고야 من نگوینم از غفص آزادم کنیم قفصم برده به باقی و للمن شاد کنی and shot home I'm going to sing a song called, لال را خونه جا بینه سنم تو به تو دارم ندید بر همه که ازش دیگه بینه سنم من زد و دوری نتوانمقی درسته Be your time be well Be your heart be well Be your time be well موسیقی درسته دل خود دل البارو رفت از ذه خود تا که رو خواد نما بدی کوره غمم چون به دل من رسید همچنه بگو اما گفتیم که همه یکی از شنید من زود تو دور نتوانم دیدار Thank you. He will have you, He will tell you Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, oh, oh. piano plays softly piano plays softly Oh Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, تا به تو دادم نلادین این خبر بر همه گست کشت یه بین I love you. من زد و دوری نتوانم دیگر جانم بست و سبوری نتوانم دیگر بیا حبیبم بیا تبیبم بیا حبیبم Jag tar mig hem. Thank you. I'm not sure if I can play longer, but I was told, yeah, I can play one more. Okay. piano plays softly One ray of light Is making a rainbow in my room One kiss from the sun Can take away all my gloom Oh, my Lord. Breaking through ice, crawling out through my hideaway. You are my love. You are my love, you are my life, oh my light All memories growing to be open floating fields of breakable charms Plainful cries of flickering hopes Of fading doors that open and close your eyes Let us go And through our hideaway One kiss, one sigh Is enough To give me life It takes my breath away But gives me life One ray of light Makes a thousand rainbows in the night Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, piano plays softly Thank you. I love you.... Thank you. Terima kasih. piano plays softly Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, piano plays softly Thank you. Takk for ating med. Thank you. I actually wanted to say something. Can I say something? It was hard for me to play this concert because I didn't know what to play. Because this is a, you know, this is a festival for a lot of musical experimentation and the kind of music that I do, I don't know. For me, this is a completely new way of approaching my own culture. And for me, it's a contemporary way of defining what I know. But I never know how it comes out. It's a really interesting question. How do we see music and how do we categorize it and everything? And yeah, that's why it was hard for me to play, because I'm playing songs. I'm coming out of the context of its usual way of playing them. But I don't know how others are perceiving it. So this is something, a question to be answered. Thank you so much for all your attention and all the love. Thank you. Vielen Dank. So thank you. So thank you. So thank you, Golna, for playing this concert. And thank you a lot that you were so honest to tell us that also you left your comfort zone today. I highly appreciate it. And I hope you liked it too. I mean, I do experiment in many different projects, lots of different approaches with music, but my solo project is very song-based. However, I do not see it as a typical song, songwriting approach. So I was not sure what part of my music should I bring today. Well, I enjoyed a lot, and I hope you enjoyed it too. Yes, I did, certainly, of course. Yes, so enjoyed a lot and I hope you enjoyed it too. Yes, I did. Certainly, of course. So thanks a lot to you for your concert. Thanks a lot to people on me and the panel, Bernhard Günther and Rosa Reitzamer. And not so much to say actually, despite of the usual thing that somebody organizing a festival has to say like hey, we have a donate button on our page. And you can buy the posters from this year's edition of Klangmanifeste at Echoraum. Probably not in the coming two weeks, but maybe later you can write us an email on klangmanifeste.org. It's still possible to buy them as a memory. I hope you all will do a walk and the advertising pillars. I hope to see you soon again, everybody in life or not. Anyway, have a great evening and see you soon. Bye.