Tanya Cushman Reviewer Reviewer's Name Hello and a warm welcome on behalf of 52, the networking association in Austria for flinter persons, women, lesbians, trans and interpersons in art and culture. It's the lecture today is in the context of our Queer Feminist Festival in Tangled Homes. And today's our last event so to say, where we are really thrilled about that we have these two amazing speakers, EU BISEC and Alexia Achilleus here. Thank you very much. And it's the last event, but our exhibitions, especially from EU BISEC, are still open. You can visit them in Domgasse in Salon 52. After the two talks, the artists will go in a discussion with Aileen Deriek. Also a warm welcome to you and thanks all the participants for being here today. Let me pass the mic to Eileen. It's hot. We all feel it. So we thought we'd do the introductions very quick to focus on the main things, the talk of you amazing artists. Thanks for coming. Thank you. And thank you for the invitation. Congratulations, everyone, on finding us up here. It's not easy, and there's so much going on, so we're very happy to have you here, and I promise you will not regret it, despite the heat and despite the air conditioning not working. We will hear two presentations today from Io and from Alexia, and we will have a discussion. And I would like to point out the presentations will both be in English. We will hold the discussion in English afterward. But I want to point out to you that English is nobody's first choice of language for this. So everyone has made an effort we are using english as a tool of communication because we all speak so many different languages and especially in this context it's important to keep in mind that we are looking at at this topic through the lens of a of a language of colonization and to keep in mind what that means for all of us. So to start with, Io Bisek, we'll talk about the drone behind the falling star. Io is a multidisciplinary artist, interaction designer and programmer. She lives in Paris, but she works across many borders. She will tell us more about herself in the course of her talk. But she uses in her work, she critically reflects on digital tools and their roots in capitalist and colonial logic. And she'll tell us more about the wonderful spaces she's anchored in. And I highly recommend taking a look at those spaces, the collective she works with. But I warn you, don't do it in a hurry. Take your time because you will get lost. I speak from experience. So, Io, please. So hello everybody. I'm going to go there but so it's more easy but I wish I could be closer. We are going to be closer a bit later. So thank you so much for being here. I'm very glad to share this discussion with you, especially during this time. So I want to thank everybody that makes this event happen, 52, and also the university. And I'm really, really also glad that we can have this discussion. I'm glad that we can have this discussion. So I'm just going to start to introduce myself a bit more so you can understand from which perspective I'm talking. It's very important to add context actually to the discussion and so I'm taking maybe five minutes to talk a bit, okay? So, or maybe more, five minutes. So I'm a multidisciplinary artist, interaction designer and programmer. And one of my main activities is to do websites and online space for organization and for cultural, associative and political projects, you know. political project, you know. So what is important that we develop with all this kind of space is the fact that we are trying to collect, to preserve and to share our archive and for some projects it's very important because it's so easy to be erased and to not know what we've done. So the question of archive remains very central in my work. I also did some scientific research with the University of Reykjavik called the CNRS in France and it was much more linked to AI, bias and digital character representation. But then I stopped because I really wanted to defocus techniques. And it was really technique as a center because it was scientific research. And then I stopped. And I also using a lot of different tools to create art and to create other narrative, to also dream and to really opening discussion and to have like a place when we can collaborate all together on okay what does it mean all this development technology and just at the moment for example there is this game a wilderness garden at gallery fund 52 until tomorrow that i'm inviting you to go so it's also a reflection about space you know and it's made totally differently than now that is much more like a discussion and so if you're curious please come to gallery 52 until tomorrow um I'm part of multiple collective I'd say and my practice is before all very a collective practice it means that there is a lot of people with me all the time and the voice that I'm having now is not only my voice but it's also the voice of many people through me so I'm very happy and one of this collective is Dreaming Beyond AI. So Dreaming Beyond AI is a space for critical and constructive knowledge, visionary fiction, speculative art, organizing around communities through AI. Actually, we are using AI as a gateway to broader societal questions as feminism, futurism, marginalization, imagination, and so on. And it's very important to question how this technology can experience, how can we experience the presence through this technology. So the goal is really to de-center technology and create a space for connection and coming together. I'm also part of Maté Architecture that is a space that hosts a network of spatial practitioners dedicated to African development and spatial education and through different kind of artistic collaborations to design art and architectural research we are going together in order to share multiple projects. And I think in one or two months, we are going to have a new project. So stay tuned. And so for me, it was really important that you have this introduction of the different things that I'm making, where I'm coming from, to understand, OK, why is the drone beyond the falling stars? And also to understand yes my involvement into some spatial reflections that I'm making now through infrastructure technology AI space at different level and so for this talk I'm gonna focus on Paris because this is where I've been raised and I was born actually and for me it was important to also say to you that there is different way to speak about technology especially to all this media theory you know there is different way you can do it with a lot of distance sometime and trying to understand things from far. That is very important. But at the moment for this talk, I will talk with a level of emergency. So there are not going to be a lot of distance. I'm going to use a lot of news articles. So you can also anchor my talk into events that happen and temporalities that are also in the now, even if it's open to multiple layers, obviously. that also in the now, even if it's open to multiple layers, obviously. And so there is this focus, the focus is going to be on Olympic Games a bit, but then it's going to open to multiple aspects. And so as multiple cities that are hosting Olympic Games, when you're hosting Olympic Games in your city then your city is getting very transformed it happens everywhere like it's not only in Paris but I just saw it it didn't like I think it's finishing tomorrow you know so we are very into that and so it's very also something that is from like not so many time, you know, it just happened in the now. And so what's happened? So students have been forced to leave the university accommodation while actually some homeless people who are pushing out of the city and a victim from the emergency shelter. Many people with mental health issues were transferred to other cities in order to still have some health care. So it was like a big transformation. And meanwhile, the cost of public transportation has increased by nearly 100%. That is also another form of spatial segregation and that was targeting especially the vulnerable population. And you can see, so this is a map of Paris and all this kind of area, you cannot access it without a QR code. And it was very interesting to think about privatization of public spaces for this kind of events that you know that's supposed to be the city supposed to belong to many people. And what was very interesting to me like the first time I saw about QR code in Paris it was during COVID-19 actually. So it was about an emergency situation that was concerning a lot of health situation. And now for Olympic Games and other demonstrations, you can see that you can also have QR code. And to see specific example, I just wanted to maybe to let you question about how sometime in time of crisis we are going to find some solution and technical solution that can work but also that won't necessarily disappear or will come back for other occasions that are not an emergency anymore. And so this is also one of the situations. During this time, there were police everywhere. You cannot go out without seeing police, and there is police everywhere, and police from everywhere as well. So you can see helicopters, drones, there is a big, big, big police presence. And I know that, for example, my little brother was getting more control than during this time because of the situation and so that's why the talk is called the drone beyond the falling star it's like I was in my windows and I thought I saw falling stars and I was starting to make a wish make a wish you know and then directly after I saw like there was something just you know flickering in a way and I was like was it a flying star or was it a drone and so by using this kind of analogy it was very for me to insist on the fact that you're using big events to also apply more surveillance technology. And one of them is VSA. So we call it video surveillance algorithm. No, I don't know in which sense. Video surveillance algorithm. So it means that they put some algorithm into video surveillance in order to control behavior of people. We already knew about technology since years and years. I mean, we heard about it maybe eight years ago in China, for example, or maybe three years ago also in the United States. But actually, in the legal platform in Europe, it's the first time that it's happening as legally. But it's not the first time that they are using it in Europe. I don't know everything about the situation, but France are using it without any legal from this nine years. And what was important also is like the software that's doing this kind of surveillance. It called BriefCam and it's an Israeli company that are selling this software. And so I think it was very interesting that we can start to make link between situations around the world. It was very important for me. And so during this summer, what I also saw, but I cannot know, so I'm sharing with you, I saw the police just taking picture of someone in the street, waiting, and then let this person go. And I was like, is it facial detection for control now? Is it now? I look for it on the internet and it's not supposed to be legal, but I saw it. And the first time I heard about it, it was Marwa Fatafta, that is a digital right activist from Palestine that did a lot of beautiful talk. But one of the talks that was one of the collectives that I'm part for called Futurist, called Digital Colonialists and Palestinian Resistance. part for called Futurist called Digital Colonialists and Palestinian Resistance and actually what Marwa Fatafta was explaining during this talk it was the fact that Israeli soldier in Palestine was taking picture of people and they were like this kind of course and reward like more there is person taking picture more you filling the database and if you winning you can have I don't know holidays or money or something like that, so there are like all these things happening. And what was the feedback of taking pictures? If it's green you can go, if it's orange then you have hands control, like it's getting very intense, and if it's red you can go directly to the police station and getting arrested and what was important also to think about into this is the fact that it was not only what you're making that was creating changing having an effect on the color it was also what was happening online so if the day before on social media you were posting something, directly, if we take a picture of you, then the feedback can be read. So I'm just explaining it very shortly, but I'm inviting you, if you can, it's open, going on the Futurist website and watch this beautiful discussion. So if Israel is capable to create this technology, it's because they have the opportunity to develop them locally without respecting the human right of Palestinians, and then to sell it to Europe. And we can see that this technology is very easy than to go to a place to another. And as I mentioned, it was an election when I've been asked to do this talk. And far right was maybe getting the first party or friend. So I was very, very anxious. And so in this context, I was like, OK, so now we are developing a lot of technology and we are like okay maybe we have nothing to hide but what we are seeing now as well is like there is a rise of fascism a bit everywhere in Europe so what's going to happen when you know all this technology with authoritarian regime you know what's going to happen and so it's a question that i wanted to ask with you as well um so the french police is present in france in their territory but not only unfortunately they are also present in their colony and their former colony and maybe three months before the Olympic Games, the French government decided to try to push a law that will allow a bigger part of the New Caledonian population to vote. So then it will maybe allow people that are not there from so many times to have a decision, you know, into election in Kanaki, in French-Canadonia. And then there are a lot of demonstrations happening in this context, a lot. And during this demonstration, so the police came and they also plan to ban tiktok in this territory and this conversation as we mentioned is not happening happening only in new caledonia is also happening in the united states as we can hear at the moment because they are afraid of maybe manipulation of china and it's very very complex because they are still using, I don't know, Facebook or Meta and all these kind of platforms that was actually playing a big game into many elections around the world. So, yes. And this kind of attitude of willing to block social media. We also saw it in France one year ago. So I'm just going to explain you very quickly. One year ago, there was a young boy called Naël that had been killed by the police. And then there have been a lot of riots a bit everywhere in France. A lot of riots because at the same time, the police get, I think, one million of euro paid by the population to support them. So it was very complex. And so already to this time, Emmanuel Macron was thinking about shutting down the social media because he was thinking that through social media, they can organize, you know, so we need to shut down. And so at the same time of this, during the, a lot of people get arrested and a lot of people get very high, high condemnation, you know, it was not small, it was very big. They wanted to serve as an example. And they were using social media and all these social media that we wanted to ban to actually incriminate people. So the question, OK, for who? And in which sense? And so for me, I just wanted to introduce you very quickly the concept of colonial continuum developed by many people. But now I'm just showing the work of colonial continuum developed by many people. But now I'm just showing the work of Leopold Lambert that also giving drawing a map of this colonial continuum and making link between Algeria, New Caledonia, or for example, the suburb of France territories. And this continuum is not limited to police harassment or judicial repression, but also mobilize other state tools to exercise territorial control. And on one of them, one of the main examples of that for me is a welfare system. In French, it's called called CAF but French Welfare Service so it's a service that gives you money when you don't have money to pay your rent for example to help you to pay your rent or if you have child for example and into this kind of service they are also using algorithm They are also using algorithms since maybe six years. And La Quadrature du Net, that is an association of internet rights defense, just managed to have the algorithm and to make some tests. And what they found out is that you can have a bad grade. If you have a bad grade, then you have control. You can have a bad grade if you are low income, an unstable employment, being a single parent. And so if you take the statistics, there is a lot of women also that is directly targeting by that. If you have a lot of your income coming into your rent, then you have a bad grade. But there is many, many other kind of rules that you can saw about it, like the fact that if you're coming from a poor neighborhood, then your grade can go down. And so on all the politics, for example, of gentrification, how can they act in order, you know, to maybe put people again aside. And so what's happening in France is not only happening in France, actually it happened also in Rotterdam, and it happened, yes, in Rotterdam, where the Wired and also Lighthouse made a big report about this also social welfare happening there, where they also were discriminating a lot the population, and through that they reorganized and they managed to ban it, for now, until the new one and then they managed to ban it for now until the new one but they managed to ban it and it was interesting because also right now we're on discussion about okay how can we do you know to save in a way the population from this system and the main question that was interesting to me, okay, how can we help each other across borders, you know, because the same kind of things are happening like a network slowly at different kind of temporality, different kind of topics, but it's also happening. And so it was directly thinking about that. So for me to confront this technology, it's very essential to not fight each battle at a national level, even if there is some local specificity that we really don't have to arise. coalition around the world and really important to yes have space like this where actually i'm talking about french while we are not in france so you can know and have different kind of space when we can exchange about what's happening so we can may it can help us to see what can happen with different kinds of temporalities. And so it means creating and thinking about international resistance, about coalition. It's thinking about developing, for example, tools of solidarity, about encouraging mobilization around Earth. Many that can be. I'm thinking, for example, about the Uber hit, and like it's Uber. Uber is everywhere. It's not only, you know, in one territory. You can see Uber in many topics in many countries. And so really trying to create a network of solidarity and having this kind of coalition to straighten and amplify voice and action, and really act together against globalized system of power while adapting the struggle to local specificity. And so with Dreaming Beyond AI at the moment, we are launching our new residency since four days now. So maybe I can go to the website that I created also for this. If there is internet, maybe I was too... Okay, so maybe there is no internet. So yes, so... Is there? No. Yes, so Dreaming Beyond AI invites you to apply to the 2025 Artist Activist Residency that aims to explore coalition-built teams in terms of AI. We are looking for four artists, activists in residence who will work individually but also together to interrogate this topic from April to June. So we embrace new projects but also existing projects because for us sustainability is also important, we don't have to always create something new so if you want to push further a new project, just go. And so with that, we want to support the tool, support the production of tools for organizing against AI violence and surveillance, nurturing of resistance impacting technology harm. We want to as well, archiving digital knowledge and protocol for action and solidarity. So it's exactly what I was saying, for example, with the lighthouse reports that did all the things against the welfare things. They put everything online. So if you want to act in your city, now you can. So it's also about developing protocols to help people to support the struggles we would like to invite applicants that are invited artistically and but not only that we really have a deep link with their community in this three-month residency so this residency will be online and also in digital and online and also physical. And physical, it will happen in Spain. So yes, if we were interested to do this project, it's because in France, this year is changing. But before, they were never talking about technology. They were talking about police surveillance. Yes, it was a technology. They were talking about police surveillance. Yes, it was a topic. They were talking about many things. But technology was not a main topic because it was never seen as an emergency. And I can totally understand why. You know, I cannot say, hey, there is this algorithm that could. And they say, yes, they already killed someone yesterday. You know, so it's very hard to consider this question for technology and all past residency was about time and temporality because one of the main questions, who has time to think about that? But in fact, as these tools are now shaping our life at very many levels, it's very important also inside community to open discussion. And I'm happy to be in space here but also in France with feminist association and everything to be able to talk about different subjects and to organize yes around this topic um on the residency we are also trying to do it smoothly and so we are trying to support you by having some sparing partner with some mentor in a way that are Alapop, Anasuya Sangutpa, Seyi Akiwowo and Xingxin and yes I mean I don't know if I, yes I think I'm good with time. I could, like, yes, perfect. So, I will be very ready to answer your question and your interrogation to you, or you're not agreeing, and like, I don't know, to open more thought with you later. So please stay for the question. We would like to hear from Alexia Achelios about exploring AI colonialism and geopolitics through artist games. Alexia is a Finnish Cypriot, a Finnish Cypriot artist and researcher based in Cyprus. As I said, English is nobody's first choice here. She has a background in visual arts, archaeology and cultural studies and in her work she questions the notion of technology as universal and objective and challenges preconceptions found in history, society and AI technology itself. Starting from a local perspective with a post-colonial feminist approach she examines the power dynamics that influence technology. So I hope I've understood more about what you do. Huge thanks to 52 for having me here as well. As soon as I heard that EO will be, I will be my co-presenter today, I was really excited because we come from a very similar theoretical framework and I think all these really amazing things that Io shared today can serve as a nice basis for the works that I'm gonna talk about today. But before I begin, my work is anchored locally to Cyprus, so very specific geography. It has a very local character and I'm gonna take a wild guess that most of you don't think about Cyprus too often, so I thought I'd start with a very brief introduction. So here's Cyprus on the map at the crossroads between Africa, Middle East and Europe. And zooming in, the colonial history of the island is really reflected on the map. Cyprus used to be part of the British Empire until 1960 and as a legacy of that we have UK military bases where the British military undertakes spying operations in the area and it uses Cyprus as a base for military operations in the Middle East for example it is doing it as we speak in Gaza and the island itself was divided into 1974 following ethnic and political violence as a result of independence from being a colony. And then we had a Greek military coup and a subsequent invasion from Turkey. And as a result of that the island has been divided into. The south part is the Republic of Cyprus. It is where mainly Greek-speaking Cypriots were forced to move to after the war and it's part of the EU and unofficially recognized country by most countries in the world. On the other hand, in the north, we have the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, and that is where most Turkish-speaking Cypriots were forced to move to after the war. And it is only recognized by a few countries. And dividing the two parts, we have a UN-controlled buffer zone, which is a militarized no-man's land. And at least in the South, where I'm based, this division, it really feeds the political narratives of the country. Everything is about this division. It contributes to maintaining structures of power and it feeds to what racism in Cyprus looks like as well. Also, Cyprus and the whole region in general, Eastern Mediterranean, where this hybrid in-between region, we might be classified either as West, part of the birth of Western civilization, or we might be non-West and Oriental, depending on who's doing the classification at the time. And I'm really curious how all of that transfers into AI technology, how these various colonial legacies we have and the power dynamics transfer into technology and vice versa. And Cyprus, in terms of AI, we're in the peripheries of the global AI ecosystem. There's no critical discourse about the matter at all. Indeed, AI is seen as this modernizing tool that's coming from the civilized West and it's going to solve everything, all the age-old problems we've always had. And with all of that in mind, I've been exploring how I as an artist can contribute to critical reflections about AI technology in the wider community in Cyprus and also function outside the bubbles of galleries and conferences and work with the community somehow. I was inspired by the work of artist and game designer Mary Flanagan, inspired by the work of artist and game designer Mary Flanagan, who writes about critical artist games. She says critical artist games can function as means for creative expression, as instruments for conceptual thinking, or as tools to help examine or work through social issues. And I found that very inspiring and I found myself working and experimenting with artist games lately. And that's why I'm going to talk about two artist games. They're both work in progress. I'm currently play testing with local groups. So every time I present these there, something's always a little different as the game evolves. The games are very physical offline and it's very important for me so that once play testing is done they can be easily just printed and played by anyone and both games are also part of a bigger project I have of mapping what AI colonialism and power in AI looks like in Cyprus. The first game is a board game, the AI colonialism board game, the thinking behind it was learning that a lot of research and AI ethics are mostly coming from the US and the West. And the ethics that come from that are very specific for the social, cultural, political reality of those areas, but are considered to be universal. And they might not be valid in other regions where power structures look a little different. And so this board game tries to understand what these particularities are in a local, separate context. Let me see if I can play this video. Great. So this is some footage from a playtesting session I had in April in Cyprus. It is a collaborative board game. It aims to raise awareness of what these AI power asymmetries might be on a local, separate level in a playful way, but also speculate what these can be. And together through collective discussion, we speculate on power asymmetries in AI and how these might impact differently the local communities and how they shape the AI landscape of the island. And I'm hoping that through the game we can start speculating of what the impact of AI is specifically on Cyprus and the various communities we have that have their own unique characteristics, because not everyone will be impacted the same way. And this is the concept of the game. Cyprus is under AI colonialism's occupation. And we have a few Western AI companies that have centralized all power in their hands, and they control the global AI infrastructure. And they push their own values and worldviews as universal without taking into consideration the diverse and pluralist experiences of communities around the world. They exploit global population, the natural environments, all for their own profits. They mine raw materials in ex-colonies, which are then used to build hardware that power the technologies, to extracting internet users' data to train their models. Visually, I wanted to reference this colonial era Euro games of imperial fantasies and colonial gaze. For example, this game, the noble game of elephant and castle from the 1800s, where the rest of the world is depicted through a hegemonic colonial gaze. And I wanted to juxtapose this historic colonialism with present day's colonial character of hegemonic generative AI. And yeah, that's why I wanted to use generative AI to produce images of Cyprus through the algorithmic gaze, very exoticized, orientalized, representing the whole Middle East as a monolith. And in this game, the players have to collectively fight against AI colonialism by collaboratively collecting all fragments of the colonial AI that have been scattered across the island. And at the same time, they need to avoid having their own data scraped by the web scraper, which is a bot that are usually used by AI companies, amongst others, to scrape data from the web to train AI models. And to reach the fragments, the players move along the game board following the instructions on the player cards. And these cards provide various real-life scenarios from global, for example, big tech's impact on the island, how Western made AI actually, what is the transferability when it comes to local reality. To regional geopolitics, for example the British army testing their AI warfare on the island which is then used in their wars in other countries making Cyprus complicit in their war. wars in other countries, making Cyprus complicit in their war, and even to internal power asymmetries in local society. For example, the national AI strategy that we have that is completely dominated by men in high positions. And these various scenarios prompt the players to collaboratively reflect on power dynamics, who will benefit in each scenario, who might be harmed, and map these through the game. And players are urged to think intersectionally, but, you know, how gender, but also nationality, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation etc. how they all intersect. For example a Greek Cypriot woman might be impacted differently than an asylum seeker woman. And at the end of the game the players reflect on the results of the power dynamics and we check if any patterns have emerged throughout the game and what we speculate that these separate AI structures of power look like. At the same time, the person playing the web scraper tries to get the other players and steal their data without consent. They move around the board with the help of the web scraper card. Players also experience bureaucracy. If their data is scraped by the web scraper, they have to lodge a complaint with the commissioner for personal data protection and wait for it to be examined. And that can take a while. And once all fragments of the colonial AI have been returned home, based on the game scenarios that we discussed, we speculate on what an alternative decolonial AI strategy would look like for the island. That also challenges current power structures. At the moment, official national AI strategies of Cyprus is dominated by men, Greek-speaking Cypriots, affiliated to private companies, and the strategy really reflects that. Based on everyone's experience playing the game, we add a clause for the strategy that we hope will cover the entire island somehow. And at the end, compiled, we will form an alternative, justice-oriented AI strategy. The second game is a role-playing game, Beyond the Sea and Uncanny Valleys and American Smiles. It's concerned with the myth that technology is universal and it works equally well for everyone, everywhere in the world. The narratives that are being used by Silicon Valley CEOs when they talk about their technologies, they have these universal promises of AI benefiting all of humanity. It will lead us to the best world ever where no one will have to work anywhere anymore, but the best world ever according to whom? We know that AI is far from universal. Silicon Valley's AI is trained to see the world through this Western anglophone lens and the values and the worldviews that are then imposed on the rest of the world without taking into consideration local context. For example, in generative AI, American cultural norms such as the American smile are imposed on other cultures for whom such concept is not related at all. Western trick AI and this universality that it imposes. It erases local knowledge. And instead, we have this Western monoculture. It misrepresents culture of Cyprus when using generative AI, for example. It depicts separate people in a very stereotypical way, very similar to photographs of British colonizers and the narratives of uncivilized locals at the time. Or I might not be able to use the technology in my language because it's not considered a profitable language for Silicon Valley to develop. So if I'm trying to interact with chat GPT in Cypriot Greek, which is the language spoken by the majority of people on the island, chat GPT tells me that it is not a valid language. And this is especially problematic as Silicon Valley CEOs, they consider generative AI to be the base for AGI, artificial general intelligence intelligence that is as smart or smarter than humans. And so this game, it's a single player role playing game. It is in the form of a book. It explores what the rest of the world looks like under the colonial gaze of Silicon Valley's AI. The player interacts with various characters that are played by generative AI tools, for example text-to-image models, large language models, and the player sketches a map of their experiences and it prompts the player to reflect on how their local community is represented or misrepresented by generative AI. And I hope it can challenge the idea that AI technologies are universal and work equally well for everyone. The game is set in a world where Silicon Valley AI companies have colonized new territories and the player takes on the role of a solitary cartographer who returns to their hometown after being away for many years. And their task is to navigate and document the changing landscapes of their hometown's colonization caused by the imperial processes of Silicon Valley. In the game, the player generates images of their local landscapes from very highly specific locations to more subjective descriptions. The key here is to use as simple prompts as possible to see what the norm is according to AI. And the material that the AI model generates is then used as reference to create a map of the player's hometown as seen by the algorithmic gaze. And as the player delves deeper into the game, there are moments for pause to reflect on their experiences, thinking how well these models are working when they use their own language, or as opposed to English, or whose perspective the images might come from. The player also generates images of locals who become characters to interact with during the game. who become characters to interact with during the game. And the player is asked to critically think about how their own community is represented in AI as well, through whose gaze. And they can also use large language models to have conversations with these characters that they generate. The central focus is interactions regarding local epistemologies, for example, knowledge of the land, local language, dialects, food, customs, celebrations. And throughout the game, the player needs to be wary of colonial agents that are serving big tech companies. And as the player interacts with these generated characters, they need to approach them with caution and scrutinize their answers. Are they really who they think they are? Can they be trusted? The players also get to decide whether to challenge or assimilate in the colonized hometown. If the player chooses to challenge, they get to fight back the colonization of their hometown, sabotage colonial systems, and use the technology to empower the local community, or to assimilate into colonial life and see what happens. This is one example of material that was created during the game. It's by a person living up in the villages in the mountains of Cyprus. The model misrepresented their village. It comes very much from a very touristic gaze and she did not feel that it felt it represented her own hometown the way she experiences it. And so, both games, we try to aim to understand the position of Cyprus in the global AI ecosystem, from external colonial influences of Silicon Valley to regional geopolitics, but also the internal power asymmetries in society. And in addition to them being standalone works, the games also function as community data creation tools. We create the data while playing, so, for example, while drawing the maps, mapping power dynamics, speculating in an anti-colonial way. mapping power dynamics, speculating in an anti-colonial way. And the aim is to use this data from both games to examine what this power in AI looks like in Cyprus together as a pattern. And I don't want to speak on behalf of the whole island. So that's why community creation of data is very important to include these various perspectives and the various voices and AI is a topic that is purposefully kept very opaque and inaccessible by the AI industry so through the play I'm hoping that it may be easier to get people to reflect and talk about AI because I find it quite difficult to start conversations on that topic otherwise, at least in Cyprus. So yeah, stay tuned and see how the project evolves. Thank you very much. Thank you both for those wonderful presentations. There's so much to think about. But I think one of the questions, one of the first questions that comes to my mind is the field of AI is so vast and complex and it's constantly changing. And the hype that we're bombarded with constantly is just exhausting. So I would really love to hear from both of you. How do you keep up? How do you cut through the bullshit? Which voices are you listening to? Which sources do you trust? voices are you listening to which sources do you trust yes so first i wanted to thank you for staying here because it's very hot just like everybody's wet now but yes i think um it's by altering um i would say, of trying, as I was mentioning, putting distance and not really focusing on AI because AI is just a reflection on something that happened since a very long time. So AI is just a mirror. So if you just get focused only on the news, you're just going to get lost. So it's about also managing to take time to really watch what is important and on a topic I think question of colonialism and the continuing colonialism through everything clearly space, object, game at so many levels materiality, like yes. But I would also say that I'm still stick with the idea that we also need to look at what's happening. Because if then we choose to do not look at what's happening, because this is still the same thing, actually it's affecting reality of people. So it's also then trying to find a balance between this kind of behaviour. Yeah, it's, I also find it very difficult, this constant bombardment now with this AI hype. And as Io said, like even going through the media, a lot of the journalism really does perpetuate all the narratives that is used for promotion of these companies and not necessarily talking about it in a very critical way. So it's very important to find very good sources where to where to look at these things uh there's a lot of feminist um discourse on the matter um shall i give some examples or yes i really love the uh good robot podcast if anyone is familiar with it uh it's by two i forgot forgot their names. It's two academics based in Cambridge and they really have amazing, amazing podcasts. So every episode they cover a different topic and always from a feminist perspective and try to give alternatives to various discussions that are really happening each at the whatever period. So that has been really amazing but yeah but i feel like artists as well there's so many artists who are working on this topic and so well informed can i say something more yes for me it's also important to think about as you mentioned who's talking and also to very break the boundaries between who have who is allowed to speak about ai you know because it can be make people feeling a bit afraid or you know i'm not expert and now and everything and in fact there is a lot of people that are not expert and we are not waiting for you to be expert to actually trying to create and understand. And so we can talk about it and how to do it. I would love that many people can also very feel concerned because if you have social media, for example, you have an algorithm, you know, so already it's affecting you. And even if you are not, you know, we are just like going place to place. If you are taking the airport, at so many levels. And so it's something that is really about us as individuals also. And I'm inviting you all in your practice, in your action, to also incorporate some of your reflection about it. Thank you. I think that's a really important point, that we don't all have to be experts. We don't have time for all of us to become experts. Alexia, you mentioned becoming unwitting, involuntarily complicit in other countries' wars when technology is developed there. So I think it's important to be aware that this has been happening for so many years. And we don't need to be experts and afraid that somebody knows more than we do to be able to say, no, this is not what we want and to be able to formulate what we do want instead. The other question that I'm very interested in, so also from my own perspective, is I'm interested in the infrastructure that you use in your work. So I'm thinking software, hardware, cloud services, hosting. We know that AI is incredibly resource intense. So how do you deal with that? What infrastructures do you have that you use and what do you think is missing? This is something I've been struggling a lot lately. I used to train my own models back in the days when you were able to do so relatively easily using your own data sets. And at the time, I wasn't thinking so much about the environmental impact of it at the time. But as we learn more and more about it, and also as it's just become so clear what a top-down centralized technology AI is. It's impossible. It's almost impossible for you to train or use AI without being dependent on big tech. So you're either going to use the cloud services unless you have a massive, you know, super powerful computer, which most of us don't. So I think whatever you do with ai you're always kind of you can't really help not being associated with these uh with these companies so i've been increasingly first of all i've been increasingly um wary of that. So the number one question is, why do we need AI? Is it necessary to use AI? Is it part of the context? Will it add to whatever work you're doing? So that's number one. But I've also, I think increasingly, I've been using, not necessarily been using AI as a main medium, but also talking about AI using other mediums, but still hyper-fixated in AI nevertheless, because it's not so much, AI is not just the technology, but it's AI, it's just, it's society really. And I think when you're thinking about AI, it's, yeah, all this power that comes with it. And so often AI is being used as just a facade that allows people to get away with things that otherwise you would not be able to do so. So I think that's so important to look at that. I think I have a big computer at home. think I have a big computer at home so I can have and train my own model and everything but also if I didn't reply because for me it's not a solution the solution is not like everybody have a big computer and everything and I was trying to put the question and say yes it's true it's linked to AI but it's also linked to technology in general you know and so i'm in my um when i was being educated as a media interaction designer one of the first thing it was trying to understand narrative behind technology in general why are we using it and in which context and trying to understand if it's really worth it to use this like this what are the other kind of way also because most of them sometimes not working from some population I know that for example AI at the beginning was not doing face detection with me so it was also okay it's supposed to work but it's not working so we need to find other way and to survive into systems that are not made for us. So is there still a lot of, I don't know how to say it, but you make you make it yourself a bit. but what I wanted also to rethink and to think it really about collectivity in a sense especially collective infrastructure is something that is very important to me and also how do we consume technology in general even without being into AI, AI is just like a prolongation but if you're thinking about the cell phone for example I'm getting nostalgic of maybe the idea of cyber coffee at the beginning you know of what it was supposed to be and to make us to be and what is it now and I'm also working with some friends families that working into this new cyber cafe. It's not even a cyber cafe. It's no space for people that do not have access to a computer but need to do all the administration are totally lost, for example. about collective space where actually we can understand at a level what we can do together and to take care of this together instead of all having orbit machine at home. So this is one of the things. And yes, I have another but it just disappear. So I'm gonna let. Thank you. Yeah, I think that's a wonderful idea. Again, a very hopeful idea. I'm really not trying to refer to Ars Electronica and the theme of the festival this year. But I think that is an important idea to talk about collective spaces and shared resources and how to collaborate better and find people. So that's another question I have. Ruth Catlow from Further Field in London said many years ago, the secret to successful collaboration is to find the right people to collaborate with, which I think is a wonderful position. So I'm interested in hearing from you, how do you find the people that you work with? How does that come together? Is it just serendipity, coincidence, or a chain reaction? Or how does that work for you? Trying to think. I think it's both.endipity many times, but also me trying really hard to reach people. And well, especially in Cyprus, trying to email people, not always getting answers. And just finally someone that I'm interested does respond. But I do find the most interesting collaborations have happened serendipitously, if that's even a word. Yeah, which is actually quite the beauty of it. But we do have this issue, I think, of not having, in this topic, there's not so much interest on a local level in Cyprus and I am trying that hopefully with the games to kind of raise this urgency that it is a very important topic to think about and hopefully through there we can start spreading this collaboration and working together and thinking about and having this kind of group of grassroots or stakeholders that we can then together start tackling these topics because it's definitely it's not something that one person can do alone. Personally, if we're talking about the team, before hope there is anger. So there is this need to find the people that are angry with you. Very important, you know, then with this anger, then you are able to create change, you know, so focusing also into this and with this anger that is really important to conserve at so many levels while there is no change. There is also not really to assimilate. I think it's something that really went with me, like not necessarily we need to participate, even if it's big and it's shiny and when you acting this way people that maybe look like you are coming or maybe you will come to people who look like you so i would say no assimilation and hunger can be a big some step to create all together. Thank you, that's a really good point too. One thing I am curious about with your games and also seeing where you're playing, first of all did I see that correctly in the game that it's in English? It's in English and in Greek so far yeah I shared the English version because I think most of you speak English rather than Greek but But the plan is to have it in various languages that are spoken in Cyprus as well. I was curious about translations because your point about your language not being recognized. I had a very similar experience when I was living for two years in Spain and feeling a bit lonely. living for two years in Spain and feeling a bit lonely and I noticed on Twitter that someone from Linz was posting about visiting a local farmer's market and just very amusing comments in the local dialect in 2019 when Twitter was still fun. Because when I went to Spain my Spanish was non-existent after two years it was just woefully inadequate. So I was very dependent on DeepL. And I saw this on Twitter and just for a whim, I thought, OK, how would DeepL translate this? Nothing. DeepL did not recognize our local dialect here as German, local dialect here as German, which also told me to be very, very careful about how much I can trust a machine translation. But yeah, it is a very odd feeling because this short commentary was bringing lots of memories of Linz sitting in Spain feeling a little bit lonely and suddenly that's not German. That's not a real language. no, that doesn't work. So yeah, the question of how to incorporate other languages, how to move across different languages, what kinds of strategies do you see for that? On a separate context, it's a priority for many people is really reviving and changing the status of the local dialects. So really focusing on how the local dialects can be used over the imposed Greek of Greece and Turkish of Turkey that is being everywhere. So for example even in schools we're not allowed to speak in the Greek of Greece because it's sorry the other way around we're not allowed to speak in the in separate Greek because it's not considered proper and we all have to speak in Greek of Greece, mainland Greece. So there's this really huge need, I think, amongst a lot of people to create the status of the local dialects more official because we don't have an official writing style even though we use completely different letters or sounds that don't exist in Greece and so on. So a lot of the work a lot of us are doing is how to do that through technology as well. So we've been having projects such as community creating data sets of Cypriot Greek, working with local linguists on how to write Cypriot Greek correctly and what an official way of writing would be. So we could then train large language models and create keyboards that are in Cypriot Greek that we can use. So I think it's more on that side. And the same thing with other local languages such as Turkish Greek, Cypriot Arabic and so on. Greek, Cypriot, Arabic and so on. Would you like to add something to that? I don't know which context to go with, so I don't know really how to answer. Okay, it's a project that I became interested in, I first became interested in their I first became interested in D.E.A., Distributed Artificial Intelligence Research Institute, when I saw that they were working on creating language models using very local languages. So a project mostly in South Africa and in cooperation with other countries. Yeah, I think the African continent has a lot of work on that. And I think Maori people have created... Yes, there is a project going on. Yeah, Maori, yeah. Okay. Do either of you have any questions that you want to bring up? Anything else you want to bring up now before I open it to questions from the audience? No? No, really? No, I'm happy to hear any questions. Okay, then it's not getting any cooler in here. We can pretend we're all in Cyprus, so it's really interactive and immersive experience for everyone. Yes, so imagination, that's where we are. Okay, I have one microphone that if anyone would like to speak, I'll bring it to you. Does anyone have any questions or comments, something you'd like to know more about from the two wonderful presentations? Yeah. Hello. Thank you both of you for amazing presentations Yeah. Hello. Thank you both of you for amazing presentations and amazing work. I just wanted to ask you, you mentioned in your presentation of yourself that archival work is really important to you. And so I just wanted to hear more about that, whether you are, yeah, how are you working with that in your different areas of art and other forms of activism? Yes, thank you. I think now I remember the things that I wanted to say before. I think it was a question about AI and infrastructure and everything. And so it just reminds me about the fact that now we can see that we are not owning a lot of the things. It's true that we still have open-source software that we can own, but we are thinking, for example, about Adobe subscription, that we have so many softwares that we do not own anymore and so for me the question of sovereignty at many levels and how do we say, yes technological sovereignty also going through ownership and so by going on the question of ownership it was important for me that the people with who are collaborating have the capacity to own their archive in a way, and so not relying only on social media or on this kind of platform, but to be able to have collective server all together so they can have a kind of space when they can decide what to show, what to stay on the archive but not showing also, and working with different kind of level of visibility. And so it really depends because it really depends on the organization and it's really changing. Also, there is, for example, a work about digitalization sometime also, if it goes very far. So we need to digitalize, but also we need to understand, OK, what do we want to remember? Because on the archive, it's not necessarily means that we need to archive everything. So we really have to ask the question, so for who are we archiving as well? And what are the frame of the time where we are considering the things um i like the idea of website also because it's allowing people to have a platform to share directly but also because you back end and so content manager system you can already have a platform where you organize your content and you can just you know having things for you and for others to connect and to have access to things um for me the question of archive also imply question of fugitivity also because sometimes you want to archive things that are not necessarily that you can be at risk if it's um if there is a leak or whatever. So there is also questioning the level of security. And so sometimes having not necessarily digital archive also. But then it's meant to have space. And I come from France. In Paris, it's very hard to have space. So it's also other question. And that's why also digital is also good, because then you don't have the question of the space. And so, yes, it's just going through organization, understanding what they want and trying to build with them. And also what is very nice, it's also, oh, then you start by doing this being like a point of connection between many organizations. Now I work with an organization here and there and there. And through also my work, they can be connecting in a sense. So I think it's really interesting to navigate space also like this. Any other questions? Someone else like to ask? Thanks for the talks. Thanks for the talks. I also make like, let's say like critical games. And one thing I've been encountering is, at least in the field of games, I feel like the majority, I wouldn't say the majority, but a lot of the people playing it the Hogwarts gamers sometimes have this very toxic mentality of masculinity and whenever like I present them this critical game stuff I made, their reaction is like that's not a game and have a very specific way of what a game should and should not be which I think has this very boy nerdy, boycraft nerdy culture attached to it. And have you had any past encounters like that by showcasing your work? And how do you try to bridge these gaps in your works if you ever do? Maybe a tricky question, sorry. How do you try to bridge these gaps in your works if you ever do? Maybe a tricky question, sorry. My colleagues, a lot of them are exactly those. But it's been actually very helpful because when I present and develop the games and I have conversations with them, I then, you know, they come up with their feedback and then I understand where they're coming from and then I can have these discussions with them and not necessarily go with what they say. But one thing I've been finding very hard as I've been trying to find people to play the game is I really want to have men working in tech in the local industry play the game and that's been very difficult. They're not interested at all but I'm still trying to do that but fingers crossed. Can I ask you a question? What kind of values are important for you when you're creating a game for example? What you you will focus more in terms of timing? So I guess I would call myself a gamer but I also make games in this artistic context. I'm also exhibiting one at the Posse now. I do think, for me personally it's important to balance this criticality and the funness of it and making it in a way so that um the criticality is hidden behind so that people annoyingly like consume it and they have let's say bad digestions about getting this critical message um is something i try to do but that's very very hard and yeah i often have a lot of my gamer friends telling me what i'm making is not a game which is very annoying but yeah any other questions Any other questions? That was one thing I did want to ask you, Alexia, about how do you find people to play your games? How do you do community outreach? I have been contacting various people, groups through friends friends contacts um i've been posting about it so various various various ways of doing it with varying success as well so it you have to be very um patient and because for me it's so difficult it's it's very difficult when I'm trying to reach people of in the groups that I don't belong to so there's a matter of building the trust as well and making sure that no one's being taken advantage of that everyone has agency and all that so that's something I need to work a lot so it's it's a time-consuming process yeah but you're not doing that time-consuming process by yourself are you mostly yeah yeah yeah but yeah of course you know friends and contacts to help but it's mostly me doing that now that you are talking about the players, I was wondering in terms of research, do you do like a previous questionnaire about their demographic profile or background or something? That's my first question. And my second question is, because I'm also developing a board game for children and I have these cards that are informative, like the ones you have in players, so I wanted to ask you if these facts that you write in these cards are real. So, and how people react by reading these kind of cards, because are impressive information that maybe they are not aware about it. because our impressive information that maybe they are not aware about it. They are all real. So this is part of my PhD research. So I had done a lot of research review before starting the game. So the board game is actually based on a research review chapter that I've written for my PhD. So it's all based on a research review chapter that I've written for my PhD. So it's all based on actual fact. And because it's part of my PhD, I do have questionnaires as well, just to check with demographics. I think it's for the academic side, it's very important then to see if there are any gaps and I need to make sure that it's a balanced group of participants. And what was the third question? How they react? Very positively, actually. I haven't had any, or at least in my face, no one said anything too negative. But people have, because I think in the local media, media for example there's not really much discourse on these topics and most a lot of people don't really know what's happening um and yeah people have been surprised a lot not knowing that you know and you always think that you're the center of the universe until you know through these various scenarios that you're the center of the universe until you know through these various scenarios and you there's all these prompts to use tools and go on websites and check how things work on you that you realize that maybe ah you're not the center of the universe for silicon valley or something and also checking how you know for, people living in the north and people living in the south, how even the physical infrastructure affects their experience of these technologies. Also, in terms of how people react, Io, I'd be interested in your experience talking about resistance, especially now resistance against the far right and activism. What kinds of reactions do you get from activists and people who are in the streets, who are very active in resistance against the right? Are they willing to think about technology or is that just somebody else should take care of it? No, no, we are organizing we are I think there is a school also that are creating in order to teach people to know more about the subject there is like a workshop mediation so I think no there is a very they're trying really to open to a lot of people and a lot of people are interested because you can see that it's not only about algorithm it's also about i don't know social media is something that is concerning uh for us a lot so it's also about for example harassment deep deep fake for revenge porn for example on telegram and everything and for all this kind of topic you know you don't need to be necessarily like a geek and to know more you just need to exist on the digital public spaces so actually just uh very easy to to to have people that already have things to say. Like, oh, I've been shadow banned, you know, because I was sharing something like it's like a common reality for a lot of activists. And so it's really easy to then be together and to discuss. And also I still have the question, I think it's in general when you were talking about the game and also when I don't remember the name of the person that were talking about the game and also when I don't remember the name of the person that was talking about the game but there was this question about like for who are we creating game you know because I think you can create different level of accessibility through games that you can do it with multiple art and I know that some artists are using demographics for example trying to make you access to some room or not you know because you know you're not like the idea of universality this idea of neutrality I don't know why it should exist as well in the game and so it's really also important to you to playing with what interaction allow us to really try to make conversation depending who is looking at you. But I think it's still with fugitive practices, it's not maybe with mediation on the subject. Another question? Thank you. Sorry I missed the first part so I don't know also my e-sim is not working so i couldn't look up while i was sitting here to what you're actually doing but anyways i um it'll ask a more general question about art games in particular what i always struggle with or what i always question myself when I have the ambition to make a game or start making a game, is on what kind of player level do you wanna go? Do you wanna go make it a tool for a specific community to teach something or do advocacy? Do you wanna have it as a more popular game and then you fall in a whole other ball game of putting it on stores, but also your design has to change, I think, if you have that ambition. I'm just talking about games like Papers, Please or This War of Mine or My Child Laban's Born, which were not easy games, in the way they they had a lot of players so i'm really talking about your ambition do you want to reach a lot of people and really have these subject matters um out there for a larger audience and what are the consequences of that that you have to do as a game designer to try to get it out there are you okay with saying no i'm gonna keep it small and i'm just gonna target specific communities and make it as a sort of uh tool because i there's a lot of really great little indie games out there, but a lot of times they're preaching for the choir. So have you any ambitions? What is your stance on that? I'm not a game designer. I'm an artist. So I think I look, and when I plan all these things, I plan it all from a more art perspective. I haven't thought about... I mean, for me, it's important to reach as many people as possible. And I'm constantly working on the language of the games as well to make it simplified and make it as accessible as possible as we go. But yeah, once I feel like they're ready to be out there for everyone, I mean, I'm currently playtesting it and using it for data collection for my research to understand what all these power dynamics might be on a local level. But afterwards, they're freely downloadable to anyone. But also they're going to be physical artworks as well. So I think they're gonna have, yeah, many levels of manifestation physically and digitally. Yeah, if that answers. I could have another question. I think for me at the moment it's not really about everybody have to play it it's really about rethinking how do we consume gaming and how do we want to exist in this kind of market and so it's not really about like being for everybody so it's maybe about trying to create occasion to go all together and to experiment and to talk and to play also and to through playing have very discussion and it's also by sometime approaching subjects that you're not really seeing in a game in this sort of game and just being maybe the wrong one into some community because you will be the only one who play game when people are coming with film, for example, or with singing, or this kind of thing. And then you're trying to do collaborative, for example. So it's really about trying to choose this game to create occasion for people to meet and to think and to reflect together. And yes, it's small, but it can be a small part, but I'm not really into number, but maybe much more into the how and the quality and, you know... Like a community tool, in a way. Yeah, I couldn't find a better word there, but... Yes. Yeah, just... Thank you. call yeah i couldn't find a better word there but yes um yeah i'm just thank you any more questions since my my research is on on children's rights in the digital realm is always important for me also to to ask artists who has this kind of critical thinking ask them if you also foreseen to bring this to schools or to secondary schools last years maybe because students have to have like a kind of intellectual level knowledge level and bring it first to yeah schools or if you are also willing to bring it to AI careers or engineering systems, because it's also a way of raising awareness also to the future programmers and people who will start to design these kinds of things. So it's really interesting that you're asking this question because actually I started making games when I was a kid, really, like I was maybe 8 or 9 and English was terrible and YouTube was not existing at this moment, so no tutorials and everything. So gaming can be interesting, but even gaming is like like how can we make game together you know and really getting out of who is playing of this boundary between who is playing and who is like making it but also allowing for them with very simple tool to be able to also express themselves because also they are going to maybe be the technician of tomorrow or the thinker of tomorrow and so allowing them through this practice to also already have an experience with um something to add so did i understand the question is whether whether to give it to children at schools or... If you are like considering bringing this kind of game that develops critical thinking... If I personally? Yeah, if you as artists, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. That's what I didn't understand. Well, I have considered schools, but then the way the game currently is I think it's more directed towards adults so if I were to include children in it it would need to be a separate game and I have to rethink it I have to rethink the scenarios maybe in some wordings because at the moment I'm not sure if it's very suitable. So I am the my aim is to include university students so anyone under 18 really because I feel like they're the kind of youngest age that are able to play with it. Yeah because some of the scenarios are a bit explicit as well. Okay anything else? Oh yes. Oh, yes. Hi. First of all, I want to thank both of you. Thank you very much for your presentations. I would love to see this kind of presentations like on a weekly basis. I mean, daily I could also because I think it's very encouraging. I have like, not like explicit questions to you now, but for me it was more this, I mean my brain is kind of fried because it's very hot, but I try to put it together. um like this um how to um how to uh make like to take space also to um connect intersectionally also in um activism and ai and also in regards of austria i have this feeling for example now with the educational system like the um they see AI as a chance for, so everyone has a better chance on education or like, like equality in education, like what justice exactly, like what the fuck actually, because as if we were not living in a very colonial, patriarchal, white, meritocratical system, and as if AI would fix everything. So I think like, I take this idea from the cyber coffee or cafe now with me, actually, because I think it's, actually, because I think it's, yeah, I think, well, at least me or my surrounding, we would really need that to, you know, talk about it and to think further how to be active in this. And I'm just a user, you know, I'm not, I'm not a programmer, and I'm an artist and user. But yeah, how to though do something different. Any comments? Thank you and I also, yes, a user but I'm trying to not think too binary. do not think too binary. So I hope we can, yes, walk more into this kind of limitation into who is what. Also, poor people. I absolutely agree with you. I have to say about Austria and the school, the education and what's going on now. It's no, this is not what we want. We have to do something different. We have to change this. We need to have a literacy as well as a more wider thing in schools as well. It's increasingly becoming part of, you know, every single corner and aspect of our lives that it's it's it's a very urgent topic for all of us just at some point to be aware of how the technology works absolutely and completely new forms of discrimination so with language as you're saying teachers thinking oh it will help students who use non-standard language. No, it's another form of discrimination that's just making it so much worse. And to be aware of those kinds of challenges, I think, is so vitally important right now. And when we think about having more this kind of knowledge into school, it's also what this knowledge are linked to, digital knowledge and I'm thinking for example about consent and children you know, so yes there is like so many work at so many levels so it's going to be a very hard task to revolution at the school but there are more and more of us and we're finding each other and so maybe we can do something with that or we can do something with that that's what we'll say absolutely okay I don't know how you're doing in the back of the room I think I've had enough of the heat I would like to end this conversation but you'll both be around and so the programs tonight or over across the river at the Stadtwerkstatt 48 hours is a wonderful program I'm going there I would be happy to see interview there too and thank you so much thank you so much for 52 for organizing this for all of your hard work and all the thoughtful care that goes into all of your events I think that's one of the most important things about 52 and why it's really good to be invited. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And let us thank, please, you as amazing artists, you, Bissig, and Alexia Achilleus. And also thank you so much, Aileen, that you guided us through this amazing lecture. Thanks also to the people for your interest, for all the questions. And this was, I hear it from the box, and this was in cooperation with the feminist IA lecture series from Kunstuniversität Linz. This is important for us to know and also thanks a lot to DorfTV who made the filming so this discussion can also be seen later and we have a break now and in around 15-20 minutes you can see a great performance by Malessia she She's also an artist here and thanks a lot for this wonderful afternoon. And tomorrow if you didn't see the game yet please come at 52 to play Wilderness Garden. Please do it and give me an applause for our fantastic speakers.