you Herzlich willkommen an diesem frühherbstlich-sonnigen Freitagvormittag bei einer weiteren Ausgabe der Sendereihe Wassermeyer sucht den Notausgang aus dem Studio von DorfTV in der Kunstuniversität Linz. Ja, es ist in Zeiten wie diesen immer wieder notwendig, auch mal Perspektiven zu wechseln, nämlich die Welt, in der wir leben, nicht nur aus der Sicht des reichen Nordens, der nördlichen Hemisphäre wahrzunehmen, einzuordnen und zu diskutieren. Nein, es ist tatsächlich dringend geboten, hier auch mal eine andere Sichtweise einzunehmen. Und ich tue das immer wieder auch gerne im Rahmen meiner Sendereien, so auch natürlich heute bei Wassermeersucht im Notausgang, bei den Gesprächen zu Politik und Kultur in Krisenzeiten. Ich freue mich sehr, dass ich heute einen ganz besonderen Gast bei mir im Studio begrüßen und willkommen heißen darf. Es ist Polina Porras-Zivolopova. Sie ist mexikanische Künstlerin, lebt und arbeitet in Mexiko, wenn sie nicht gerade im Ausland ist. Und sie ist heute zu Gast, um über wichtige Fragen der Weltwahrnehmung, über Mexiko, über das Leben an der Grenze, aber natürlich auch sehr akute Fragestellungen mit mir zu diskutieren, wie etwa ein internationales, sehr globales Phänomen, die unglaublich anwachsende Gewalt gegen Frauen, aber natürlich auch wichtige Fragen zur Mobilität und Einschränkung von Mobilität in Kunstleben und Kulturleben ganz allgemein. Ja, ich darf Polina Porres kurz vorstellen. Sie ist eine mexikanisch-russische Künstlerin. Sie ist in Moskau geboren und lebt zurzeit in Oaxaca in Mexiko, einer mexikanischen Stadt. Hat davor 22 Jahre auch in New York verbracht, kennt also ihrerseits wiederum andere Sichtweisen, etwa in New York, einer der größten Städte der Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika. Ihr künstlerisches Schaffen beruht, ich zitiere das, auf verkörperten Praktiken, vor allem auf Performance-Kunst und anderen zeitbasierten Kunstformen. Ihre Inspirationen stammen aus ihrem synkretistischen kulturellen Erbe und ihren Lebenserfahrungen im Grenzgebiet von Mexiko und den USA. Wobei sie sich mit Themen des Privaten und des Öffentlichen sehr intensiv auseinandersetzt, des Realen und des Fiktiven. Und da spielen gerade auch weibliche Ikonografien eine bedeutende Rolle. Wir werden vielleicht dann auch noch über einzelne Details ihrer Biografie im Gespräch näher eingehen. Aktuell ist sie in Linz auf Einladung und Unterstützung der Oberösterreichischen Landeskultur GmbH, hat hier sozusagen einen Monat lang einen Arbeitsaufenthalt und ich freue mich, dass ich sie heute hier willkommen heißen kann. Polina, it's great to have you here with us in our small studio of DorfTV. Thank you. That gives us the feeling that the world is coming to us. And I already introduced you as a multilingual cosmopolitan artist. You've seen a lot of the world. Actually, you are living now in Oaxaca in Mexico. And that brings me to the first question. Very interesting. We already put some Mexican stereotypes on the table. It's intended. It's not a joke, but it's the best image to enter into the talk. When we look to Mexico, we perceive above all a lot of stereotypes yeah we have in mexican views often these ancient indigenous cultures on the other hand modern technologies we have this uh difficult topic of migration border border and numerous crimes. We already also can read it in our Austrian newspapers, a lot of murders in Mexico and our daily life. But what is now of interest is what's your personal view of Mexico? My personal view. Well, thank you. Thank you for the invitation. And talking about stereotypes, maybe you will see another stereotype. Mexicans smile a lot, even in really hard times. Smile and laugh. Laugh at life and death so yes uh so many of these stereotypes unfortunately um it's it's it's sad that you you receive these these news and stereotypes from from mexico like uh like crime right it's not not good news because it is true. It is true. Mexico has a high rate of crimes, unfortunately. It is a very complex situation, mainly because we're neighboring the United States, but not only of that. It's poverty. Poverty has to do a lot with this, with this situation of crime, migration. Mexico is also the way to the United States. So not only Mexicans migrate to this country, but Central America and South American people pass through Mexico. Stereotypes, yeah. What stereotypes do you see here in Austria? I'm curious. What images do you see? We have a lot. We have our food, we have our ancient empire, a lot of nostalgia, and I don't know, the former empress like Sisi and all these myths and cults of former history. And that's a lot. But that's hiding realities. And, you know, that makes it difficult. Yeah. Well, Mexican culture is a syncretism. It's a syncretic of, yes, very cultures many of them it's not only one it's not only aztec it's not only mayan but hundreds hundreds of cultures that are still uh they still exist it's not a part of the past there for, in the state of Oaxaca, one of the states that has strong indigenous roots, still you can go to a village, and I feel a foreigner because people speak Zapotec or Mixtec, and I don't speak these languages. So with this strong indigenous presence, then we have the history, the deep wound that hasn't healed, which is colonization of the Spanish. And it is not in the past. Although this happened 500 years ago, it is a current topic. It is a current wound that hasn't been healed. And it's a part of a daily life because this wound spills into discrimination within societies and who who who is more Spanish and who is less Spanish and this place into color of your skin and and poverty. Usually if you're of darker skin, that means you have less of economic means, and that means most likely you're going to migrate to the, you're going to look for, of course, opportunities to live a better life, and usually it's going to the to migrating migrating to the states so yes this is this is um this is a reality this is a reality and how do you deal with this colonial heritage in your artwork colonial heritage um yeah i like to play with this, especially I do use images of religion, mainly Catholic religion, which is the predominant religion in Mexico. But you have to understand that when the Spanish arrived and the native indigenous cultures were obviously living there, they had very strong religious beliefs and ceremonies which somehow did not disappear with Catholicism. They kind of mixed. They mixed. But apparently what you see is Catholicism, there are places in Mexico where in fact people are behind these saints there are other other gods and goddesses from ancient cultures so I like to play with with rituals like ancient rituals I do use the the rituals in my performances as a basis catholic imagery but to I change them you know I subvert them or I change them into something else so many times something imaginary of my, like new possibilities or new ideas or new worlds, but that do come with ritual. I like ritual. And Mexico is a ritualistic culture country. It's every day there's some kind of ritual in the beginning you you mentioned uh this uh you call it a mexican stereotype this the mexican smile be it related to life be it related to death and that reminded me there is this famous figure of santa muerte, very powerful iconography. What can you tell us about Santa Muerte? It's very bizarre in our Western point of view. Yes, yes, yes, yes. In this person of gods and goddesses of images, in Mexico it's very heavy on images, very bizarre, surrealistic. I mean, it's probably the country of, the surreal country per excellence, as Breton said. The Santa Muerte is one of the many saints that has been… Probably should we explain how she looks like? Yes, yes. And it is she, for sure. It's a woman. And I must mention that the topic of death in Mexico, it's very important. It is seen and looked upon in a different way than other cultures. That's the Day of the Dead that many people know or have heard about. So she looks like a skeleton, a skeleton with some kind of cape- uh and with a sickle uh but then she takes other she might have flowers uh she does look creepy she does look scary but for people not every Mexican adores or like veneers here. It's a certain group of people usually, people who are, yes, on a poverty level. Sometimes it's said that it's for people who who deal with the um the the drug drugs but not necessarily because there is a saint only devoted for drug dealers yes so so this is how she looks. Yes, yes. Okay. You already were talking about that you grew up on the Mexican border with the United States in Juarez, I guess. This border is, even here, is very well known as a hotspot for a lot of conflicts, conflicts over migration and flight. Yeah. How has this border between Mexico and the United States shaped your life? Yes, yes. It has greatly shaped on different levels. So Juarez is one of the, it's the biggest border town in Mexico, bordering with El Paso, Texas. And these two cities are also called twin cities. They're literally one touching the other, divided only by a river. There is a river, although usually it's dry. Um, um, and, um, so I spent, um, maybe about 10 years living in, in the border. For me, I, it's, it's a place that I, that I, that I hold deep in my heart in a good way because i've always felt uh that i don't belong anywhere quite i don't belong because i've been an immigrant all my life uh having born in mexico in russia then moving in in to mexico so i had a cultural shock very early on so moving to to border, this is kind of like a no man's land. Most people, many people come from somewhere to look for better opportunities to this area of Mexico. And for me, I felt at home. Yes, I lived in the 90s there. It was a dangerous town then, and it's still a dangerous town. It became even more dangerous in the 2010s. I wasn't living there anymore, but you I you adapt you adapt to the circumstances as many in many other places of the world and in Mexico specifically you adapt as a woman you learn what to do what not to do and you don't question it you don't question it because it's your safety but i i i lived a quite a a binational life living there because i lived in juarez with my parents and i was actually going to university at the time, crossing the border every single day, every single day. And it's part of life. Now, not every Mexican can do this. So here is already a privilege. Not everybody can do this. And here, not everybody has access to a privilege. Not everybody can do this. And here, not everybody has access to a visa. Right? So in this case, I had a student visa. You can have a tourist visa. But only if you can prove if you have the means that if you're of a certain economical class. Most Mexicans who migrate to the United States don't have this. They don't have the means. That's why they're migrating. And they look for other ways. Maybe also another stereotype of how people cross the border running through the desert, with the help of what they call coyotes, coyote, people who smuggle you through the border. I didn't have to do this. So it's already who has access to mobility and who doesn't. who has access to mobility and who doesn't. But for me, I lived this binational life for a decade. And I learned to walk the streets in Juárez one way and walk the streets of El Paso a different way. And yes. walk the streets of El Paso a different way. Even here in Europe, we experience that borders always create and produce strong images. We see over a long time these thousands of people often marching. There is this famous march, I guess, one year ago from Mexico to the United States. It was a protest march. At the end of the day, when we look at it via our media, we always see a huge amount of anonymous individuals. They are all anonymous. We don't know their name. We don't know where they were born. We don't know how their kids are called, whatever. And that brings me to the next question, because it's very, very important in the context what we already talked about. It's the value of life that's very very important because when we look over the the entire world there are a lot of differences how uh the value of life or the value of in a sense of human rights is considered and what's about this this this mexican border what can you tell us regarding the value of life? Yeah, the value of life. I mean, I think the value of life starts in talking in Mexico. Unfortunately, yeah, value of life is not so much valued. I mean, how can I explain this? Because this has to do a lot with impunity. That so many crimes of men and women and children and migrants go without punishment. So there is this system of impunity, not only in Mexico, but in Central America and South America and other places. The fact that Mexico has this geographic position, that it's on the way to the United States, that Mexico has this geographic position, that it's on the way to the United States, it causes so many problems of human rights. People going through Mexico that have to go through land, either walking or on the famous or infamous train the Beast it's called or it's yeah it's nicknamed pose so they in people they know. This is the thing. People who are crossing, they know. They pose so many dangers. Starting, or one, the Mexican government, the Mexican police. The federal government. The federal government. So that's one. Then the mafia, the drug cartels, and the smugglers themselves, which are linked. So everything, there's this network of crime of different levels. And this is a big problem and this is a big problem this is a big problem and then of course yeah then arriving finally making all this journey uh throughout of throughout mexico and then finally arriving to the border uh and then this is kind of like another frontier. I wouldn't say the last frontier because even if they manage to cross the border, they still have to cross areas of the United States, like in the case of the desert, which is another big danger. And of course, the immigration patrols. But you get to the border And of course, the immigration patrols. But you get to the border and yes, life is not valued because, as in other countries, this is not particular to Mexico. Regarding the human rights, let's get a bit deeper in a more focused detail, what we call femicide. It's a topic here in Austria, but not in the mention as in Mexico. Mexico is, I don't know, very high on the ranking. A lot of women killed every day, raped and killed, and they disappear. And nobody asks. How can you describe this situation? How can you describe this sort of general culture where it happens? Can you tell us a bit more about the role of women in Mexican societies? Because that's so difficult to understand. Yes, yes. I think it starts with this, the idea of what is a woman? What is a woman in a society like Mexico. And I think it starts from, of course, a very deep and toxic machismo, or machismo attitudes. And the church has a lot to do with this. So we're back to the religion and predominant cultural sense. Yes, yes, we're back to the religion and predominant cultures. Yes, we're back to religion. We're back to what is a woman and what a woman should be and what's the role of a woman in a society. Yeah, for the longest time in Mexico, as in many other cultures, women were supposed to be docile, be at home, keep the children, behave in a certain way, not express their views. Keep calm. Keep calm and all this. But also, if we talk about the images, talking about images, the image of the Virgin, the Virgin in a religious sense, especially the main mother figure in Mexican culture, the Virgen de Guadalupe in all of Latin America. So this is the mother figure per excellence. Then we have this and everybody else and all the other women. So there's this view either you're a virgin and behaving like such or you're a whore. So here we are playing with images with stereotypes and no options. No options. So we have this as one of the basis. But then what happens because of economic reasons, because women start to work, as in many other countries, they start to work, they start to earn money, to become economically more independent. One of the, going back to Juarez talking about feminicidios most of the I would say all of the women that were or most of the women who were disappeared and murdered in Juarez come were working in the maquiladoras. Maquiladoras are the factories from, usually from the US. They moved to Mexico because of cheap labor. So many of these women were working in these maquiladoras and many of them came from the south of Mexico with a family, nobody knew them, so they were by themselves with a little bit of more money. So again, the value of human life, they were like it was easy to disappear them, right? But going back to the machismo, these, the fact that women started becoming more independent, it shook this, it shook men, it shook the position and the role of men. And plus a system of impunity that it's very easy to to commit these crimes without going without being punished now here again we come to all this complicated network of mafia the drug cartels that sometimes they disappear these these these women just for the fun of it or maybe they were their their girlfriends their women so they said or there's also this level of trafficking with human organs uh but yes there is um uh a special uh problem that the violence is towards women. And it's because this idea of what is the role of a woman. And that she should not still, in the 21st century, behave in a certain way or dress in such a way. behave in a certain way or dress in such a way. This is a major factor of what is the role of a woman and that she has to behave in a certain way. Of course, there have been and have seen that the government has pushed for for changing this mindset because it is a mindset a very rooted in in the psyche in the psyche of Mexican culture even in women it's like so how to change this psyche so even there are, now it is forbidden to catcall. But this growing up was a part of life. You walk on the street and somebody's gonna whistle, somebody's gonna say something really nasty. But if women in general cannot trust in police and authorities, how can women develop strategies to protect themselves? I understood that one way is to change the mindset. That's a long way to cope with it. On the other hand, you have this way of art, law, and to impose the other rules, I don't know. other rules i don't know uh but what how can can you as a female artist contribute to this to this fight for more rights of women yes as an artist and as a woman and as a human being i think uh it's it's uh it's don't split it up don't don't don't split it up well i i guess i don't split it up yes i can split it up because if i if i talk about my art maybe some sometimes i don't want to talk about this or i don't want to address this point that's uh although i do address it but not always uh but what has touched me the most, especially moving back to Mexico almost two years ago from New York, or, yeah, kind of relocating, what do I do, first of all, for my person as a human being, as a woman. And how, well, let me see. Should I address more like the art as an artist or as a- It's up to you. I mean, for me, it has been a shock to begin with. To begin, it was as, although I grew up with this in Juarez. Living now in Oaxaca, in Mexico, it has been a shock that I cannot walk freely at night, for sure. But even during the day. So how to start changing this, how to empower yourself? I listen to people, to women who have been dealing with this all their lives and that are more proactive because you can take different point of views. and that are more proactive, because you can take different point of views. One that I see is like, I know women who say, I'm not going to be afraid. I'm not going to live with fear. Now, this is not only like, oh, I'm not going to be afraid, and I'm going to, so you still have to be cautious about it, but it's like this mindset, I'm not going to be afraid. I need to be aware, but what can I do? I mean, some some people some women even even like they take defense personal defense classes or yeah i don't know also also creating a network of other women creating a network of other women um so i think this can be can be fought at different levels i mean depending if you you want to be more proactive but in a way you you deal with it and you fight with it every day and the every day is not only the walking freely but also the attitudes of of men that you encounter in a daily basis, like changing the perspective of who you are as a woman in a society on a daily, on a micro level, on a micro level. And this I see women doing, like doing on a micro level and this i see women doing do it like uh doing like on a daily basis like oh wait a minute let me reframe what you just said let me say let me see let me so changing this because yes more and more women are aware of that this is not right and it is related to the assumptions and the roles that are assigned to women. And it's changing these assumptions. When I underlined your role as an artist before, I tried to make up another question regarding this important topic of freedom of expression. So, it's a simple question, how far can you go? And normally as an artist, you are able to extend this space of expression because it's what we call the freedom of expression and the freedom of art. And that brings me to another topic quite close to that, what we are doing here in DorfTV, being a TV station making journalism in an alternative sense. And in Mexico, we can see it almost every week that a lot of journalists are murdered on the streets mostly by these drug cartels you already mentioned. Whenever you go a bit deeper with your research in what's the role and the influence of drug cartels in the Mexican society that take the risk to get killed. And society that's that's you know you take the risk to get killed and combining it and to make a link to to this artistic freedom are is your is your artistic freedom also threatened currently or is it totally different to that what journalists have to experience yes I think it is different i think there is different um as an artist because as you said you can expand your way of uh what you're communicating and you're you can communicate it in a more you, it depends how you communicate it, right? How it is communicated in a more surreal, in a more poetic, you can use all these devices, these tools that art gives you. I think there is, artists have more of that freedom than journalists. But it could be dangerous. It could be dangerous it could be dangerous i haven't felt it yet i must say i haven't felt it yet and i've done uh i've done many many performances on the public space um yes it could be dangerous, but not as a journalist, not as a journalist or not as a parent, a mother, a father, who is looking for the truth of their disappeared child. I mean, there have been instances of mothers who really take up on themselves to find the truth of if they have a kid who has been disappeared, and then they are murdered. more of a freedom even even dealing with um with more um um even criticizing or touching upon some some topics of course you have to understand the the politics of public space if if if i'm doing this uh uh artwork in a public space um So, for instance, I've done things in front of a church several times. So there is the politics of public space, how it is, who might come and tell you something or do something. something or do something or I'm thinking about there's the biggest market in Oaxaca and this is a very political contested like a political space and I have a friend who's an artist as well and he does art projects with the children of the vendors of this market. And he really, like to become part of this community, it takes a long time. You cannot just come and do something. Even if it's a play, a music event. In this case, yes. So you have to know what space are you occupying in the politics of this. Because yes, in this case, yes. So it's more in a micro level. Micro, yes. Let's talk about feminist movement as such. Probably I repeat the question, but we can get a bit deeper in it. How can artists as you and from in the southern hemisphere effectively participate in the feminist movement? Effectively participate. In the sense of a powerful agency, you know? Yes, yes. I mean, I'm thinking about different examples, examples of other artists that I've seen. The feminist movement, let's say in Mexico, it happens a lot on the streets, one being March 8th. It's a big, big, not celebration, it's a big march that in the last years, I would say three, four years years it became extremely violent or I would say it became the tone of it changed that what women were were marching the tone changed into breaking breaking the breaking windows, graffiti, important monuments, and there was a big backlash from the government, like, oh, how are you doing? Why are you destroying this? And they said, well, if you're not able to hear our plea of, okay, we want justice, then we're going to do this. I remember pictures of really radical feminist activities just beating men on the street, for instance. Yes. That produces strong pictures. They come to us. Yes. And they might seem a little bit extreme, but I think feminism in Mexico is dealing with this, with the breaking stereotypes, breaking stereotypes and bringing justice to victims and like look for victims that have been murdered, yeah? So now talking about breaking stereotypes, an important part. And I think here artists have a very important role. So I think about specific artists who usually in the performance world, because it's such an art form that is an embodied art form and that can have much of a direct impact on the people, working specifically with stereotypes. So I do see my role in this case. And it's one of the things I do that I take female stereotypes and I change them. And I've seen other artists do this. And I think it can be quite effective. And I think it can be quite effective. If it's presented and seen by a majority of people, right? Because if it's only in a theater for a specific group of people, it's kind of preaching to the choir, right? Whatever it said. And that's why I like to do things on the street because I'm dealing with people who are passing by. You don't know who the vendor, the mother, the grandmother, the girls, young girls, or boys. I mean, it's for everybody. So it's like this changing of stereotypes. So I've used the image of the virgen de guadalupe i used the image of lilith from the bible um and different healers and this but also changing and kind of looking for for an alternative of an empowered being. An empowered being. So yeah, I think for this changing of stereotypes is really important. We're already nearing the end of our talk and since a couple of times, some time, I decided to ask almost in every of my talks to come to the point, how do you experience artificial intelligence and how you deal with it? I already mentioned it in the introduction that you are multilingual, you have a multilingual background. multilingual background. And so you speak specifically Spanish, English, and Russian. And you're also teaching language courses yourself. How will, that's the question of your own future, how will artificial intelligence change your life in the sense of how will artificial intelligence uh change our language world yes it's it's a bit hard for me to foresee okay what what will actually happen what will actually happen with artificial intelligence like how how will it really will affect us for instance our talk will be translated by AI that helps us a lot at Dorf TV for instance and will it be translated with text or audio text text so okay so my voice will still be heard with text or audio? Text. Text. Okay, so my voice will still be heard. Yeah, yeah. So my voice will be heard. So in terms of languages, as a tool to facilitate communication. But at the moment I don't see that it will replace what is really learning a foreign language because the nuances, the actually saying a word that is foreign to your mother tongue, it is an experience. It is an embodied experience. So I don't know, maybe if in the future we have this device that it's going to be like walking with us every time and it's like becomes like a like a twin i don't know maybe it's like you're maybe this will happen i don't know but at the moment i see it as a tool as a tool to expand possibilities of speaking other languages. But there's nothing like saying a word that you usually don't say or a sound that is different from your own vocabulary. Unfortunately, we are at the end. Interesting talk. It was great to have you here. You're still here in Linz for two weeks. One week. And what I can already say, we'll come back next year in 2024. So, yeah, wish you all the best for your future and hope to see you again next year in 2024. best for your future and hope to see you again next year in 2024. Ja, vielen herzlichen Dank natürlich auch wieder den Zuseherinnen und Zusehern, die mit großem Interesse bei dieser Ausgabe von Wassermeer sucht den Notausgang dabei waren. Mal ein Perspektivenwechsel aus der südlichen Hemisphäre, sehr konkret mit mexikanischem Kontext. Ja, ich darf mich bedanken fürs Dabeisein und darf wie immer schließen mit meinem Ersuchen. Bleiben Sie dem Sende Ihres Vertrauens, nämlich DorfTV auch weiterhin gewogen. In diesem Sinne darf ich mich verabschieden, wünsche noch einen schönen Tag und auf Wiedersehen.